Nemesis - Skaven vs Tomb Kings duel (starting)

[llamabeast]

Yep, the battlemages are pretty good. And if they could have got close enough for some more Dust to Dust action they would have been devastating.

Did you see my god then? He had a short and sad existence.

[Sombre]

Well warlords are better than packmasters at summoning and leading troops, but they do cost more gold and a little chunk of resources (which matters if you've gone sloth, or want to mass build clanrats/stormvermin). Also packmasters have that chance to get B1 and are ok as blood hunters (not as good as chantors though, generally).

I think the problem is you were using rats to soak up damage, which isn't something they can do. They're actually ok in melee though, especially against low att enemies they can swam, like jotuns, ogres, bandars, pale ones etc. I don't build a huge amount of them but I do like to use them for flanking with hold attack rear, because they kill fleeing troops/exposed mages/archers well.

I might write a strat guide for Skaven soon. People didn't seem very interested in the vaetti/ulm ones i did though.

[llamabeast]

Aaargh, I just staled! Sorry Cicadian, I only just got home, and forgot how late it was.

However, I think the time has come for me to resign - any more turns at this stage will just be a formality, I haven't got a hope of holding you off. Well played sir.

I am quite tempted to try a rematch. Are you up for it?

[Sombre]

Rematch and switch sides!

[llamabeast]

Well there's not a lot of point switching sides, since I've got a ton of Tomb Kings experience from all my SP testing, and besides I'm interested to know if the match is winnable with Skaven.

I'm still not convinced the rats are worthwhile. They may be okay in combat, but I'm pretty sure four rats will always be worse than three clanrats. While the warlord is more expensive, generally the limiting factor is commander-training slots rather than gold for commanders. Also I think the idea of endless swarms of rats is awesome! It seems to me that an astute player would never build a packmaster. I definitely vote for an increase to 5 rats/turn.

[Sombre]

I build packmasters a fair amount. They aren't just for producing giant rats, after all. I build them when I want to bloodhunt and don't have a temple with that fort, so can't get chantors or plague priests. They are ok leaders with a bit of standard, though warlords are clearly superior in this respect.

They have two main advantages over clanrats, besides being spawned by a cheaper commander and coming in groups of 4 versus 3. They are faster than clanrats, fast enough to be used as flankers and they cost like a third of the upkeep (though they are not free).

There is little chance that I'm going to have packmasters spawning 5 rats, because they're already pretty nuts compared with say,.. LA Ulm's wolfherd. What's more likely is I'll change their price or nerf warlords.

The next version of Skaven will see a Vermintide combat summon for 3D which will give you a large number of rats in combat and they'll actually have good morale too, being driven forward by the power of the spell.

[Cicadian]

I would be up for a rematch.

I have a few comments, having played Skaven a bit as well:

- Grey Seers seem too expensive for 5 magic levels. I realise they are h3 as well, but compared to Tomb Kings, they are underpowered IMO.

- The sacred census bearers are really cool units. Unfortunately, they are counter-productive to use at the moment as they will poison your own troops. I would suggest upping the posion resist to at least 50 on all national troops. They are rats after all.

-Given the low morale of the rats, they really need a cheaper h2 priest for sermon of courage. At the moment, most of Skaven's killing power comes from non-holy battlemages, which makes it difficult to get enough priests at the current price.