OOBs way out of whack?

[Mobhack]

The M9A1 bazooka penetration was 5 inches - the OOB figure is 12cm. The tiger tank front armour in the OOB is 12, so the basic bazooka round can penetrate, since pen is greater than or equal to armour.(Warhead size, or critical hits, can occasionally increase pen, but as it is a HEAT round, it can have reduced pen or even a fuse failure).

It is impossible to say why you are having problems with your infantry, without any information as to what you are doing, or what status the enemy is in - for example if the USA in your example is dug in and defending, then hitting size 0 bazooka teams will be difficult. And, if you are trying the common beginners mistake of attempting moving your infantry over 1 hex while under fire, then they will suffer, or moving any troops (tanks don't have stabilisers in WW2) over a hex or so, and then expecting good shooting results. See the "Game Play Notes" section of the Game Guide for tactical hints.

Cheers
Andy

[Deputy]

Hi Andy,
That's interesting info. But just shoveling data into the mix isn't very useful. The bazooka, like a single M4 tank with the 75MM gun, was all but worthless against Tiger tanks. IDEALLY, with a perfect 90 degree hit, the 5 inch penetration would be possible. But ideal hits while in combat are notoriously elusive Bazookas were notorious for bouncing off Tiger tanks. Even the MKIV had to be hit in just the right spot to kill it. Again, a REAR impact in the engine area would be the ideal hit.

As to the M9A1, my scenario was taking place in Italy in 1943. The M9 is the weapon being used. The M9A1 didn't come out till September 1944.

But ALL of that shouldn't matter one bit. What SHOULD make a MAJOR difference is my Preferences settings. I have ALL of the US settings set at lowest levels and all the German settings set at highest. So no bazooka should be able to hit and kill a Tiger tank unless it has repeated impacts to the rear of the tank. US Infantry dug in? Sjouldn't matter hardly at all. Two direct hits with an 88 on the Infantry hex and they should either be eliminated or in flight and disperced. That's where I see the problem. We could split hairs forever about whether a bazooka can kill a Tiger. But with the settings I have in place, it shouldn't even be able to HIT one, much less destroy it.

Dep

[Deputy]

Oops...sorry all. I didn't see the posts under Andy's at first. I will zip up my preferences ini and post it ASAP.

Dep

[Mobhack]

looking at the code, the line that does the accuracy adjustment is in the middle of the various spaghetti code. (It is not something I had looked at, ever, so is likely to be in its original place!). Various adjustments for movement and target size etc came after the percentage divider.

In my test scenario, US bazookas were opening up at about 14% shot 1 hit chance. Cranking their preference setting to 30% to-hit only lowered that to 10-11%.

So I commented out that line, copied it to the end of the accuracy-determination spaghetti, and the to-hits went to 6-7% first-shot. Not 30%, but these numbers get modified elsewhere in the spaghetti, by things like leader ratings and all that jazz, so determining precise values, even with the code to hand, is nigh impossible. (And we still get folks who want the "tables" ).

Note to self - if I ever write a wargame engine from the ground-up, make it table based, just like normal tabletop rules!.

Solution to make the code behave as end users would expect, is to move that line to where I did, it seems.

Good catch! - something we all had assumed was working in the original SSI code, was not.

Cheers
Andy

[Deputy]

Andy: Based on Chuck's findings (thanks for checking that out Chuck!!!), I can make some modifications to the weapon power of the various anti-tank weapons. And I thank you for looking into the code and confirming that I'm not totally insane
But....a couple more questions come to mind...

1.Is it possible for users to adjust the code as you did? Or is this something that would have to come in a patch?

2. Is it also possible that other items like rifles, machineguns, etc., might also be affected in the same way?

Thanks a ton for your efforts. I really do like the sim, and any comments I make are to improve things, not criticize.

Dep

[Mobhack]

Of course end users cannot change these as code is not available to them.

Cheers
Andy

[pdoktar]

Deputy said:

US Infantry dug in? Sjouldn't matter hardly at all. Two direct hits with an 88 on the Infantry hex and they should either be eliminated or in flight and disperced.
Dep

You are probbly talking this when the prefences for american infantry is set to min. Because in a 50x50meter area that a hex represents, two 88mm HE shells will not rout a normal infantry squad in real life, shrapnel may not even hit anyone or explosion cause slight concussions. Otherwise infantry would be so useless in combat that everybody should only be using tanks and aircraft etc.

Hence everybody around the world is screaming all the time for bigger guns and airburst rounds and more HE effect on the target. A normal infantry squad is hard to remove / rout from any terrain with just two 88mm shots.

[DRG]

Oh please........

Chucky only quotes the sources that support his ideas. Don't forget how quick he was to support your "death rays attached to the bombs" theory which you later retracted.

You barely understand the way the game works and yet are willing to jump in and modify weapon data based on who knows what preferences settings. It's "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" all over again. I can only imagine what's next.

What Andy told you was the change he made to the code lowers a first shot to hit when the preferences are set to 30% from the existing "10-11%" to "6-7% "....... OK ? When the preferences are set normally that would only be about a 14% chance So IF he puts that change in anyone who cranks the preferences down to 30% ( only you that I know about.....) will only see a 4-5 % change in the first shot to hit from what they see now when it's set to 30%. At best you'd go from 1 chance in 10 of hitting to 1 chance in 15 or thereabouts. It doesn't even begin to explain what you described in your first post and the dramatic difference between what you claim is happening in your game and what I saw and what Marek documented in his post.

I am STILL waiting for that preferences.INI that you told me was going to be posted "ASAP"

Don

[Deputy]

DRG said:
Oh please........

Chucky only quotes the sources that support his ideas. Don't forget how quick he was to support your "death rays attached to the bombs" theory which you later retracted.

You barely understand the way the game works and yet are willing to jump in and modify weapon data based on who knows what preferences settings. It's "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" all over again. I can only imagine what's next.

What Andy told you was the change he made to the code lowers a first shot to hit when the preferences are set to 30% from the existing "10-11%" to "6-7% "....... OK ? When the preferences are set normally that would only be about a 14% chance So IF he puts that change in anyone who cranks the preferences down to 30% ( only you that I know about.....) will only see a 4-5 % change in the first shot to hit from what they see now when it's set to 30%. At best you'd go from 1 chance in 10 of hitting to 1 chance in 15 or thereabouts. It doesn't even begin to explain what you described in your first post and the dramatic difference between what you claim is happening in your game and what I saw and what Marek documented in his post.

I am STILL waiting for that preferences.INI that you told me was going to be posted "ASAP"

Don

I know what every other consumer who buy this game knows. I know how the old Steel Panthers works and how WinSPMBT works. I know how SPWAW works at a consumer level. I should NOT need to have to learn programming code in order to learn what is not working correctly in the game. Unless the code in this game differs substantially from the other two games, something is definitely WRONG here. If you want to continue to swim in DeNial, feel free. All those percentages and hit chance estimates shouldn't mean squat if all the preferences are cranked up to give one side total advantage. And if there is a problem with giving one side total advantage and it doesn't work, then the problem is going to exist throughout the preferences settings. I have checked some weapons settings for the MG42 and 98K Mauser and they are just plain WRONG. It seems like whoever set the weapons numbers wanted to make sure the Allies won no matter what the Preference settings. And just to make your day (since I was at the Doctor most of mine), here's your precious Preferences.ini info:

[PREFERENCES]
PREF_HIDDEN_FIRE=1
PREF_MUSIC=1
PREF_OBJ_FLAGS=1
PREF_SOUND=1
PREF_ID_TAG=1
PREF_HEX_SIDE=1
PREF_AUTO_RALLY=1
PREF_ANIMATION=1
PREF_MOVE_RADIUS=1
PREF_USER_PREF=1
PREF_BREAK=0
PREF_AMMO=0
PREF_COMMAND=1
PREF_MORALE=1
PREF_SPOTTER=1
PREF_MOVE_SHOOT=1
PREF_MINES=1
PREF_COUNTRY_EXP=1
PREF_SOUND_VOL=2
PREF_ANIM_LEVEL=4
PREF_DELAY=1
PREF_SPOT0=250
PREF_SPOT1=30
PREF_HIT0=250
PREF_HIT1=30
PREF_ROUT0=250
PREF_ROUT1=30
PREF_TROOP_QUAL0=70
PREF_TROOP_QUAL1=70
PREF_TANK_TOUGH0=250
PREF_TANK_TOUGH1=30
PREF_INF_TOUGH0=250
PREF_INF_TOUGH1=30
PREF_ARTY_EFFECT=100
PREF_MAP_WIDTH=50
PREF_FAST_ART=1
PREF_POINT0=0
PREF_POINT1=0
PREF_AIR0=-1
PREF_AIR1=-1
PREF_AITKHVY=1
PREF_MAP_HEIGHT=50

[Deputy]

I've been investigating some of the number setting for the weapons in WinSPWW2 and came out with some really odd stuff.

For instance...the HE Kill numbers for the German MP38/40 9MM submachinegune is 5. The HE Kill numbers for the 98K rifle are 1. According to the help manual... "HE Kill - the value of the round at killing soft targets. Bigger is better!."
Oops!!!! Here's an instance where bigger ISN'T better. By this type of thinking, pistol ammo is more deadly than rifle ammo. Sorry....that just ain't so. This isn't measuring multiple hits by the submachinegun, it's only measuring the size (diameter) of the projectile vs it's damage to humans. More and more I think the OOBs are going to need some major reworking to get them correct.

Dep