Priests and LA Ermor

[Lord_Bob]

The reason you're not liking the answers you're getting, Lord Bob, is that you've presented these people with an unsolvable problem.

You say 1200 undead on turn 25. Well has the Ermor player become a powerhouse in your game or is he fairly modest? Have you become a powerhouse or are you fairly modest or not doing well at all? What magics have you unlocked? How much gems are you getting? Hell, even what nation are you playing?

Looking at your third post, your army has apparently changed from just posting on the forum. A Crystal Shield doesn't cost 25 pearls when you've got earth mages searching sites for earth gems. And you certainly do have earth mages if your priests are switching to Blade Wind, an E3 spell.

Neither have you specified what buffs the Ermor army is getting or that you anticipate they will get, and even the composition of their 1200 undead seem to get distorted as they have shields in one moment and not the next.

It's just plain unfair for you to switch the situation every time they suggest a resolution by countering the Ermor's spells and assets and to make your empire weaker whenever they suggest a resolution by overpowering.

I'm talking about having an Archbishop of Eldergate spam the spells available at Turn 1. They can be summoned, but are expensive. Any Ermor player should have an H3 or H4 priest present at every major battle unless they have a very good reason. That is the only "undead buff" I am talking about. So that's it for Ermor "buffs".

I would prefer that we talk about Castle Undead, as was stated in the beginning.

I deliberately left things wide open on the other side, but did want to exclude races that have H3 priest, because, obviously, that is race specific. I have also admitted that Blood Priests can power communion themselves to mighty levels. However, this doesn't cover all races, at all.

The fact that I have stated certain common answers don't work is true. That is because they don't work.

I looked it up, and a crystal shield costs 15 Astral Pearls and 10 Earth gems, which is still really, really expensive. Even with a Hammer, it is expensive. Good for a Prophet, not so helpfull for H1 priests.

40 H1 priests cost 2000 gold, and must be built from at least 4-5 temples, costing 1600-2000 gold. That is a total investment of 3600-4000 gold. For turn 25 that is not "moderate resources". This is a huge investment that is COMPLETELY USELESS against non-Blood, non-Ermor nations. It is, in fact, more effective against Blood nations than Ermor . Sadly.

Archers are useless against Castle Undead. Every one of them has a Tower Shield.(Some low chance longdead may have shields)

Solar Rays doesn't work either.

Earthquake bizarely doesn't work. I thought it would work to.... in the test, 4 of them will kill about 1/3 of a Castle Undead force.

Some people have suggested solutions that work.
-Telestic Animation is cheap, and could probably be "spammed" into a province that is going to be attacked
-Communion and Sabbath for priest(which is not that simple)
-Crystal Shield for prophet
-Cleansing Water(Evo-6)
-Various Level-7 spells that work against all national armies
-Wither Bones(Thau-6)
-Herald Lance(very poor solution)
-Various Marignon solutions, which wasn't what I was looking for, I am not playing Marignon(I am looking for "normal race" answers)
-Power of the Spheres, if you can prevent your mages from casting other spells.
-Penetration items, Spell Focus, and Eyes of the Void
-presumably SCs

I do read peoples answers.

[VedalkenBear]

Point by point.

Yes, the Archbishop is expensive. It takes a skilled player to juggle the death gem income that Ermor starts with. The best time to take out Ermor is, ironically, early.

We can restrict ourselves to talking about 'castle undead', but that is not fair, as your opponent will not be fielding only those troops (unless he micromanages to an alarming degree). Someone mentioned before that even in MP games, Ermor's army is only about 40% 'castle trops'. Therefore, I see no reason to restrict ourselves to 'castle undead'.

Let's talk about the nations in LE, and their Priest availability. The only nations that do not have L2 priests recruitable are, IIRC, Man, Tien Chi (maybe), Caelum, and maybe Patala (Oh, I think Pangaea might be in here too). (I'm sure people will point out if I'm wrong, and where.) Therefore, I am not sure why you focus on the H1 issues.

If 'common answers' don't work, then you really should specify under what conditions they don't work. If by that you mean 'by turn 25 against a 1200-piece undead horde', then you should specify that. The better you define your problem, the better answers we can give.

Yes, 40 H1 Priests are completely useless against nations unless:

1) They use Undead.
2) They want their Dominion in your lands (Temp ones mostly)
3) They use weak demons.
4) They are not mages (which I assume is the case).

and:

5) You don't need to build temples (i.e., you already have enough priests for that).

So, you see, your statement is quite hyperbolic. And I would like to point out again that the vast majority of LE nations (by my reckoning) have access to Holy-2 Priests. Yes, some of them are capital-only. On turn 25, this is not much of an issue.

And Archers are not as useful as they normally are against 'castle undead', true. However, we have the countervailing point that Ermorian armies (especially by turn 25) either are huge OR they have solely 'castle undead'. Not both.

Finally, I would ask again for what nation you are playing (or were playing). Given the diverse nature of the game, what can work for one nation (buying national Holy-3 Priests) won't work for another. So instead of us trying to shoot blind finding answers that might work for your nation, it would be much easier if you tell us your nation so that we can tailor the answers to the specific situation.

[Torin]

probably he wants to keep it secret.

if your enemy is showing only castle undead he is fielding less than half undeads as he could be.
By turn 25 any nation can have an army to meet them. Not only 40 priests but the priests + army + archery + magic.
The point is to use everything you can.

True you can loose, but if you can hold on you can outtech him. I think is hard to manage a good research with LA ermor. At least harder than the living nations.

If you hold, a strong thug with a charcoal shield is useful too.

in fact it´s easier to deal with LA ermor than is with lanka or the other rushers.

[Jurri]

Here are a couple of tricks that work against Ermor in certain situations: since Ermor's armies tend to mostly consist of mindless undead, any spells and attacks that don't target them will focus on the commanders. Thus using such spells as soul slay and mind burn or even charm you can destroy all the commanders in a short time. This will in turn result in the army dissolving. In my experience this is a very cheap and effective tactic against an unprepared Ermor. (There are of course counters, as for all tactics.) Note that Ermor's PD has ghouls (or at least it did in Dom2) which do suck up the spells, so this is more of a defensive trick.

In a similar vein, mind hunt is pretty powerful in stopping Ermor armies: of course, that takes a couple gems per casting and you'll want to have penetration items on the mages, but it's still a cost-effective measure if only for dividing Ermor's army before a large assault by killing off a couple commanders which leaves their underlings to the province of origin. (This, again, can be countered with a bit of planning by Ermor.)

Attacking the problem from another angle, equipping thugs with fire shield and making sure they are tough enough to withstand a multitude of attacks by mundane weapons (that are Ermor's mainstay) is an effective way to kill masses of undead. It's not really an early game solution, though, unless you happen to have a pretender with fire magic. More generally, if you can field a thug that can survive until the end of the battle, you can kill Ermor's army by making its commanders rout if you're the defender. (Body ethereal, protection over 20 and some regeneration is a good start; it's also essential to make sure there's enough reinvigoration to prevent fatigue from accruing.) In practice it's not very easy to field a thug like that very early especially with Late Age nations, but later on you really should make sure to have some.

To get even more nation-specific, there are sacreds that can beat very large numbers of Ermor troops even severely outnumbered. To name a couple of examples, T'ien C'hi's sacreds with E9N4-bless will kill untold amounts of undead if managed properly (coupled with their other strength, powerful PD , they are indeed quite an effective nation against Ermor). Pangaea's Black Centaurs also present a very effective fighting force that can be massed to beat any size of Ermor armies early on. There are other sacreds that I wouldn't hesitate to pitch against the undead horde, as well. (Of course, a competent Ermor will find a way to lure your troops into a battle where he has a sufficiently large numerical superiority and kill you off, or find another counter.)

There is no one size fits all -solution to beating Ermor, the same as any other nation. Every nation has some thing they can try, though.

[On a completely unrelated note, I find it crass in the extreme to moderate in so hamhanded a way in the public. If you want to threaten Bob or anyone else with various sanctions, I for one would appreciate it being done in private.]

[Lord_Bob]

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. Right here.

Yes, 40 H1 Priests are completely useless against nations unless:

1) They use Undead.
2) They want their Dominion in your lands (Temp ones mostly)
3) They use weak demons.
4) They are not mages (which I assume is the case).

and:

5) You don't need to build temples (i.e., you already have enough priests for that).

5) You don't need to build temples (i.e., you already have enough priests for that).

And how exactly do you build those 40 H1 independent priests without temples?

I gave a construction time of 8-10 turns for 4-5 temples. Eight to ten turns is an extremely long amount of time, and if anything my number is less than the actually required temple numbers.

2) They want their Dominion in your lands (Temp ones mostly)

While real, this is an extremely limited case, as I'm sure you know.

4) They are not mages (which I assume is the case).

I said they cost 50 gold. No Mage-Priest in the game, even Mictlan Blood Priests, cost 50 gold and can be built only from a temple. So I'm glad you deliberately misunderstood me so you could "assume" another point to your answer.

1) They use Undead.
3) They use weak demons.

As I said.

So we have willfull misinterpretation, repetition of points I already mentioned, and apparently failure to understand that priests require a temple to be built.

So, you see, your statement is quite hyperbolic. And I would like to point out again that the vast majority of LE nations (by my reckoning) have access to Holy-2 Priests. Yes, some of them are capital-only. On turn 25, this is not much of an issue.

I doubt there is a player in the game who would like to sacrifice his capital-only Late Era mages in order to build an H2 priest. You know this.

Castle H2 priests, though rarer, only require a castle and a temple to build. That is 1200 gold per build site. We could easily hit 3600 gold just from the production centers required, much less the priests. For the races that have it, it works.... assuming H2 priests, boosted with items, are that great.

[VedalkenBear]

Lord_Bob said:
And this is exactly what I'm talking about. Right here.

Oh, this should be good. </sarcasm>

And how exactly do you build those 40 H1 independent priests without temples?

You misunderstood me, all throughout this post, and I am going to explain why. I am saying that you have 40 priests. Your contention is that except against LE Ermor, they are UTTERLY USELESS (your emphasis). I pointed out that if any other nations use Undead (and I can think of three offhand in the LE), they are not useless. Nor are they useless if you have to build temples (which is what your response above was to). Or if you need to preach for whatever reason.

I gave a construction time of 8-10 turns for 4-5 temples. Eight to ten turns is an extremely long amount of time, and if anything my number is less than the actually required temple numbers.

Quite possibly. However, you seem to fail to grasp the fact that gaining priests and temples to fight LE Ermor is generally considered a good strategy.

While real, this is an extremely limited case, as I'm sure you know.

Oh? Even aside the temperature issues, I can think of any number of reasons I'd want to fight in friendly dominion as opposed to hostile dominion. I'm sure you know this.

I said they cost 50 gold. No Mage-Priest in the game, even Mictlan Blood Priests, cost 50 gold and can be built only from a temple. So I'm glad you deliberately misunderstood me so you could "assume" another point to your answer.

I didn't 'misunderstand'; I agreed with you. You mentioned '50g per priest', and I mentioned that I assumed that they were not mages and so did not have 'magey' issues. However, if you are going to take that comment as a chance to 'needle' you, you underestimate both my willingness to help you _and_ my intelligence. Believe me, if I wanted to insult you, I could do so without being so stupid about it.

As I said.

Actually, what you said was that they were UTTERLY WORTHLESS (again, your emphasis) against any nation but LE Ermor, when any number of LE nations use Undead.

So we have willfull misinterpretation, repetition of points I already mentioned, and apparently failure to understand that priests require a temple to be built.

I repeat your points when I agree with them, as most people do. I did not misinterpret anything you said. And I quite well understand the mechanics of the game. That's three insulting comments _in one sentence_ from you to me.

I doubt there is a player in the game who would like to sacrifice his capital-only Late Era mages in order to build an H2 priest. You know this.

Yes, I know this. And how many of those capital-only mages are also your H2 Priests? I can think of several. Also, I'd like to ask you exactly how worthwhile those capital-only mages are if you die because you didn't have enough priests?

Castle H2 priests, though rarer, only require a castle and a temple to build. That is 1200 gold per build site. We could easily hit 3600 gold just from the production centers required, much less the priests. For the races that have it, it works.... assuming H2 priests, boosted with items, are that great.

Why do they need to be boosted? As I've stated, several nations can have 20 H2 priests by turn 25 if they set their mind to it. From statements earlier in the thread, 1 H2 priest is better than 2 H1 priests.

Now, again, who are you playing? I would, at a guess, say Patala.

[Micah]

Good post, Bob.

Without knowing the specifics of what map you're playing on I can't really say for sure, but on reasonably large maps my income by turn 20 is often over 2000 gold, so 40 priests and temples would only be 2 turns' worth of income...the temples will help keep Ermor's nasty-*** dominion away from you as well, which is a nice benefit. It is, granted, a large investment, but in MP games you should be able to find some help dealing with Ermor from other players to help defray the cost, and in a duel the fact that the priests are useless elsewhere doesn't really come into play.

That being said, I've personally found that Ermor is pretty OP on a smallish map/duel, as they can keep enough pressure on their opponent to stunt their research when they start out close together. In addition any province-trading via raids will always benefit Ermor, as they can rapidly pump the unrest in all the border provinces and slowly choke off their opponents' gold supply even without dominion spread. The difficulty of assaulting Ermor's capital due to needing supply items compounds this, since there isn't a reliable way to counterattack effectively.

A lot of the tactics discussed (e.g. herald lances) DO suck pretty hard, but they're better than having gems sitting in your vault if you're getting overrun. Lances also have the benefit of being mailable, so your neighbors can send them to help out.

Destruction will pop tower shields nicely, and it's only level 4 research, combos well with blade wind if you have good earth magic. Good option if you have earth. Falling fires has been mentioned I believe.

The real killers vs Ermor are the battlefield-wide spells though. Fire storm, wrathful skies, solar brilliance, etc. They're hard to get to in a tight game, but they'll pretty much auto-win battles for you as long as you've got some chaff that'll last long enough to let the BE do its thing. This is pretty much the turning point against Ermor, as before you get these spells you'll be hard pressed to fight them, but after you pick them up things become much more manageable. LA Ermor is just one of those nations that it sucks to start near, much like Niefelheim. Both are very hard to stop early but kind of sputter out later on in the game. In MP you have to diplomacy your way around the problem by getting allies or at least convincing the big bad to go after someone else, and in a duel you'll just have to accept that it's probably not a fair matchup, and don't duel them if you want a fair fight.

SCs will also work pretty well. I had my cyclops pretender turtle by himself against a huge legion of undead and he lasted 50 turns against them without regeneration, causing the entire army to dissolve on turn 50...he picked up a mess of afflictions though. Regen would obviously help with that, and the opponent had a D9 bless to boot. On the flip side of that equation you do have to be careful not to attack into too much chaff with an SC without an escape route, since 400 longdead chaff will probably last 50 turns against a lot of SCs, causing them to run and possibly die.