US Sniper rifle???

[Deputy]

thatguy96 said:

Crappy because you don't have every specific sniper rifle you want? That's just a bit extreme.

Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War, you will see that with input from users of the sim, it CAN be made much better. The developers of this game seem to think it has reached perfection, even though there are numerous people doing fixes to the OOB. I haven't seen this much negativity about user input since the days of the HIND helicopter simulation. Make an honest mistake in a comment and a wiseacre mod keeps throwing it back in your face OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Yet they REFUSE to see the errors present in the game. Or they blow them off as "not having a major effect on gameplay". because it doesn't affect the way THEY play the game. Unbelieveable.
SP:WAW is no longer getting support from the original design team. But people are so loyal to that sim that they are constantly coming out with mods that make it more and more authentic as well as more enjoyable to play. As far as I can see, WinSPWW2 is at a dead end. NO input is welcome, whether good or bad, unless the person giving the input meets with their "approval". The mods and designers are so thin-skinned that ANY criticism, even if there are mistakes in the criticism, is ridiculed or dismissed outright. The forum at SP:WAW is active to this day with helpful posts and comments from users and mods. This forum is all but dead. The mods actually seem to discourage any changes because they think WinSPWW2 has reached some kind of "perfection".
Sniper rifles is just ONE SMALL example I picked out from MANY problems in the sim. But the mods have intimidated or discouraged pretty much ALL input from users. So be it. The best thing you can say about WinSPWW2 is they got it running good on WinXP. That's about it.

Dep

[MarkSheppard]

Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War,



Hey genius; the previous incarnation of this game was Steel Panthers 1. SP WaW is Matrix Games' own take at updating Steel Panthers.

[Deputy]

MarkSheppard said:
Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War,



Hey genius; the previous incarnation of this game was Steel Panthers 1. SP WaW is Matrix Games' own take at updating Steel Panthers.

Tsk tsk...such namecalling!!! Hey EINSTEIN, SP:WAW came out BEFORE WinSPWW2. But they are BOTH based on Steel Panthers.

[Marek_Tucan]

On different variants though, on different engines. With different strengths and weaknesses. Some people like WaW more, some (me included) MBT/WW2.
Judging from the history of MBT/WW2 development, both developpers are open to suggestions or critics - as long as it's not based on blanket statements and is supported by evidence. Some suggestions make it to the game engine or OOBs, some not, as it's impossible to please everyone. And if you don't like the way OOB's are set, you are provided with all you need to modify them and try out how does the change affect the "simulation".
I can tell you from personal experience that slight differences in ranges or accuracies of sniper rifles don't play much role unless you want to try to harass enemy at max range. And then usually the sniper falls prey to mortars after his few minutes of glory.

[Mobhack]

The best direct-fire anti-sniper bullet weapon in the game is another sniper. (Not a section with a sniper rifle in slot 4 ). Snipers enjoy no special advantages vs another specialist sniper, bar small size making initial hitting a tad less than a full sized section.

Next best is an MG unit class weapon, esp if firing from beyond the snipers own rifle range. MG unit classes have a few less problems with the snipers size, and if they miss, usually it is to the adjacent hex, so the splash will cause some "S" anyway (and share the joy with any neighbours he has, too! ).

Andy

[Marek_Tucan]

True about counter-sniper-snipers and MG's. However a little mortar barrage comes in hady anytime

[Charles22]

Mobhack said:
The best direct-fire anti-sniper bullet weapon in the game is another sniper. (Not a section with a sniper rifle in slot 4 ). Snipers enjoy no special advantages vs another specialist sniper, bar small size making initial hitting a tad less than a full sized section.

Next best is an MG unit class weapon, esp if firing from beyond the snipers own rifle range. MG unit classes have a few less problems with the snipers size, and if they miss, usually it is to the adjacent hex, so the splash will cause some "S" anyway (and share the joy with any neighbours he has, too! ).

Andy

What's the difference with the srifle in slot 4? I think there is a experience or morale check that is made for it to fire, which in slot 1 wouldn't be the case, but what else? I was wondering how well that works for the 10 man, or maybe it's 12 man brandenberger unit.

[Mobhack]

It is because this game is based on unit class mainly. There are very few real weapon classes (no WC_SMG, WC_PISTOL - just WT_PRIME_INF, WT_FLAME etc. In order to figure out if say an SMG is fired when deep in the guts of the code, you need to look at range, HE kill and so on, and figure it out from these data..)

A sniper rifle given to an ordinary rifle squad is different from a sniper with sniper rifle - the sniper unit class has a few privileges (if it is size 0!), when being shot at in cover beyond a couple of hexes, as well as its being size 0. But when a sniper unit class is sniping another sniper unit class - the target one does not get the sniper benefits (especially in cover etc). A squad with an added marksman's rifle will not have this. Thst is why sniper points are extra in the points calculator, for the extra built-in difficulties in killing them, if in cover, from direct-fire HE. (In area fire, they are just a regular size 0 squad).

An MMG given to a rifle unit, does not get the same benefits as one in a proper MG unit class, either (splash effects, a little extra ability on units in cover when firing direct fire, some lessening of a targeted sniper unit class if in cover ditto).

So - for snipers, in direct HE bullet fire, try to counter-snipe with a sniper of your own, or hose them down with an MMG section. Better yet, drop a shed load of mortars on them once located (even roughly).

They are also very vulnerable to close combat - so if you can close to 1 hex or 0 hex melee, they are toast.

Cheers
Andy

[Mobhack]

Tsk tsk...such namecalling!!! Hey EINSTEIN, SP:WAW came out BEFORE WinSPWW2. But they are BOTH based on Steel Panthers.
[/b]

Hmm. Unfortunately, you are under a misapprehension there.

Please read the Game Guide "Release History", for a more complete history of the various mods we started, before the TGN-later matrix guys developed their own game based on the SP3 game engine, which became SP:WaW.

Don is the original Steel Panthers modder, without whom there would have been no SP series code development. It all started with his "camo" icons for SP1 and SP2, that replaced the blue-grey and dark-brown icons of those games (remember them? - if not, find an SP1 screen shot).

I came in when the originator of the SP1 data editor (I forget who, after all this time) was not interested in continuing on with one for SP2, and he provided me with info on the OOB data file format. Mobhack started as a MSDOS programme written in Turbo Pascal, then I developed Kobhack for SP3.

Later, we got together to integrate new icons by poking about in the game EXE to convert the SP2 engine from modern to WW2 (since SP2 had the PBEM replay amongst other features which SP1 lacked and SSI were not going to develop SP1 further) and so SPCamo got started. It was our work that got SSI interested in releasing the actual source code, and without that, there would have been no development either by ourselves, or later, by TGN/matrix pursuing their own different route.

When we parted company from TGN, we decided to stick with the SP2 codebase. The TGN team wanted to do it their way and we, ours. Creative difference, but no real problem since there is/was room for both approaches. People produce many sets of tabletop rule sets, after all. The only "problem" with having the 2 engines is some folk who seem to insist that one should only have the one or other installed on their computer since it is the "best" in their opinion. Plenty of tabletop wargamers own and play several rulesets - yet even there there is a minority who, say stick to 7th edition ancients as the only "true" rules, like some form of quasi-religion. Those are generally called "fanboys", and are a tedious waste of time, whatever the game in question happens to be.

Cheers
Andy

[Charles22]

Deputy said:

Nope...if you have ever played the previous incarnation of this game, the SIMULATION called Steel Panthers: World at War, you will see that with input from users of the sim, it CAN be made much better. The developers of this game seem to think it has reached perfection, even though there are numerous people doing fixes to the OOB. I haven't seen this much negativity about user input since the days of the HIND helicopter simulation. Make an honest mistake in a comment and a wiseacre mod keeps throwing it back in your face OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Yet they REFUSE to see the errors present in the game. Or they blow them off as "not having a major effect on gameplay". because it doesn't affect the way THEY play the game. Unbelieveable.
SP:WAW is no longer getting support from the original design team. But people are so loyal to that sim that they are constantly coming out with mods that make it more and more authentic as well as more enjoyable to play. As far as I can see, WinSPWW2 is at a dead end. NO input is welcome, whether good or bad, unless the person giving the input meets with their "approval". The mods and designers are so thin-skinned that ANY criticism, even if there are mistakes in the criticism, is ridiculed or dismissed outright. The forum at SP:WAW is active to this day with helpful posts and comments from users and mods. This forum is all but dead. The mods actually seem to discourage any changes because they think WinSPWW2 has reached some kind of "perfection".
Sniper rifles is just ONE SMALL example I picked out from MANY problems in the sim. But the mods have intimidated or discouraged pretty much ALL input from users. So be it. The best thing you can say about WinSPWW2 is they got it running good on WinXP. That's about it.

Dep

Yes, they are being a bit thin-skinned, but you are asking for it by making somewhat flamboyant remarks when finding what you think are problems. You need to state things with less flare to it; more on the "you might want to check this out" line of thinking.

As far as SPWAW goes, don't even get me started. I used to play that game which is quite comparable, and that game of a couple of years ago, since I haven't played it since then, falls short in my view. Try this for a start, though they may not be issues for everyone. How about picking out a campaign as germany for the war, and start off with maybe a map with 80 hexes high (not too bad)? Then, the next battle is 20 hexes. Is that garbage or what? It used to not be that way. Then, to make matters worse, some idiot decided to complain, I suppose, that the visibility was too great in his opinion, which of course cutting it down benefitted the allies, so they did that. Anyway, you're often fighting battles with only 10-20 hex visibility IN SUMMER!!!!! Is that garbage or what? Somebody would inevitably tell you that you could edit it (like loading every battle of the campaign everytime you started one) somehow. I tried it and it didn't work for me, but let's say it did. Why should I have to alter it practically every stinking battle for some thunderstorm in the middle of the night fanatic, when they had it not too bad in the first place? Realize I'm not complaining to them now about this, because I found something, so it's not exactly like my flamboyance in this case isn't heeding my own advice. Anyway, this game let's me do both adjustments VERY EASILY, and the game defaults temselves are done so well I don't even have to do it, as it's VERY agreeable. What else? Oh yeah, I can have EVERY battle be the exact size I want it, instead of the ridiculous 20 hex varieties I bumped into far too often in the last version of SPWAW I played.

Whatever you do, heed this advice that follows very well. One day you will probably tire of one or more of the things I mentioned here about SPWAW and then you will want relief from them by going to this game, and that's exactly what you will get there. Just remember that, because some of the details of SPWAW have your attention right now, but some of the greater control, and in some cases less control, of SPWW2 (such as the fighting during the AI turn) will start calling to you. I am actually a bit curious how SPWAW is doing these days, but I don't see the huge problem of the map and visibility issues being adjusted or corrected anytime soon. I did ask to see if they could do something about the user being able to adjust the map size, before SPWW2 even did it, it bothered me so much, but they said they didn't know how, or it couldn't be done, etc.