Why Not Digitial Distribution?

[johan osterman]

Velusion said:
Jazzepi -

You are wasting your time. They don't really care about getting the game out to more people or increasing sales. The creators said it themselves in this thread (in so many words) and in other places.

While this concept is bizarre to most people (i.e. us) it is their purgatives.

It's the same reasoning that leads to the creators saying they don't want a save game feature and why glaring interface/ai issues exist but we get more expansion nations. It's also the one of the main reason why dominions will never get above the reputation that it is just an eccentric niche game for "hardcore" players.

The reasoning that leads to more nations is that JK and Kristoffer make the game for fun. They both have adequate incomes outside illwinter, and at least in Kristoffers case no desire to become a full time developer. The strengths as well as the weaknesses of the game are all a reflection of this. Your post almost make it sound like this is some sort of moral failure. Besides the nations vs AI interface is a red herring, in the illwinter division of labour Kristoffer does the nations, and he doesnt have the skills to fix any AI or interface issues no matter how much he wanted to. So the new nations does not in any significant way impact AI, bugfixes or interface issues.

The above is a different issue from the digital download, which is entirely shrapnels decision, I think you conflate the decisions of shrapnel and illwinter. Kristoffers post was a joke, I assure you he is not personally invested in not providing digital download. Illwinters interest in these matters are to do stuff they enjoy and avoid hassles, with the bonus of making a few bucks out of their hobby.

Edit: I would also like to point out that illwinter do certainly listen to customers, and try to meet their requests within reason.

[kasnavada]

Bah...

This is pathetic, and as said above, not going in circles at all. It's just reasonable people trying to change the opinion of a brick wall. Distribution for dominions 3 is just as the game is. A good concept served by the bare minimum acceptable services.

Dominions has a pretty good concept. As a game, it's good, interesting, because it's different and has many possibilities, including above average modding abilities, factions that do not feel the same, possibily for long game and much much more... However, compared to most other games, it has crappy graphics, unattractive and unintuitive UI, weak AI, little balance between different factions.

Same goes for distribution. Instead of using distribution methods that goes with the current times, it remains backward. Actually, I wonder why smoke signals ain't used ! Even forgetting digital distribution (which space empire does), the distribution services doesn't even offer to use "fast" delivery services like UPS or DHL.

I saw a little above a set of "reasons" for which digital distribution is bad. Let's review them :

1) If you want the manual shipped to you after you download the game, it becomes more expensive than just shipping the game and manual, because no costs are saved on production, and bandwidth costs are added (and bandwidth is not cheap.)

Everything but the conclusion is correct. The cost per copy is higher, but it sells more copies. Therefore you can't say that digital distribution is by definition bad because it costs more money. Given the fact that dominions pretty much needs internet to be interesting (updates, maps, community, multiplayer) it's rather obvious that many potential buyer look away from the game for this reason.

2) If you don't want the manual shipped to you, then there will be a sizable amount of players that will play the game without a manual. These might enjoy the game less, since they will have a weaker understanding of it, and they will give the game a bad name.

Elitist thinking like this does give the game a far worse name that more newbies will. Furthermore, the manual isn't up to date, and many things are not in the manual, which means that if I follow what you say, people already have a bad understanding of the game. And are already giving it a bad name. Finally : you are assuming that people need the manual ? Have it sent by mail even if you buy it online ! Why should disappear all of a sudden ?

3) Furthermore, there will now be an excuse for not having a manual, so all the pirates that "lost their copy" won't be immediately spotted on the forums

... that was the most ridiculous argument ever. It's not pirates you spot, it's idiots. The ones that want to pirate the game and have half a brain working won't speak about the manual at all. And won't be caught by such a simple thing.

Furthermore, does it also mean that anyone playing the demo, since it doesn't come with the manual, is giving the game a bad name ?

And, in order to end this argument, ever considered the slight possibility that it might actually be true in some cases ? There is a number of reason why it could be : theft, fire, accidental destruction, lost when moving to another place...

4) Without a physical manual, the CDKEY is just a number transmitted to you once, with no backups. Suddenly Shrapnel has to deal will all sorts of people that lost their CDKEYS and ask for new ones (expecting one since Shrapnel has to track their sales on their website) and potentially leading to all sorts of CDKEY scammers.

That is already done by other company and there is no problem with it. Why should it be a problem for shrapnel ? Are they dumber than others or something ? Besides cdkey scams already exist since the game can be resold. It's not a problem associated with digital distribution at all !

5) They will have to modify their entire CDKEY tracking model. They are no longer guaranteed that each copy of the manual corresponds to one CDKEY, that is printed on it.
They will have to either modify their production line to produce CDKEY free manual but store CDKEYS in some sort of other database or find some model where they print your manual with the code, and send the code to you before the manual is shipped (which creates problems for backorders.).

Why ? I mean, That is already done by other company and there is no problem with it. It's just a different writing of argument four. Saying it twice doesn't make it true.

6) There are probably some costs involved in uploading the game to the digital distribution service, plus increased maintenance.

Putting the same argument twice doesn't make it more true. More costs ? Yes, obviously. More sales ? yes obviously. I'm among those that believe that the new sales (given what the game is) will lead to more profits that the new costs.

That said, I don't really expect things to change to online distribution. However, I won't stand idle when people say that it is inherently bad, because it isn't. It's different, but not better or worse.

However, an option for a faster delivery service than 7 days (or more...) is really needed... 48 hours worldwide is pretty much standard nowadays when it comes to delivering books and dvds. Actually, except for dominions 3, I can't even remember when I last ordered something that takes so long to arrive.

Well, I'm in the process of waiting for the game to arrive. Which may take up to a month. Let's hope others after me won't have to.

[johan osterman]

kasnavada said:
...

Dominions has a pretty good concept. As a game, it's good, interesting, because it's different and has many possibilities, including above average modding abilities, factions that do not feel the same, possibily for long game and much much more... However, compared to most other games, it has crappy graphics, unattractive and unintuitive UI, weak AI, little balance between different factions.
...

I would argue that dom3 has a decent balance between factions compared to most games, most games with any noticable difference between factions doesn't have that good a balance. Not that dom3 is perfect in this regard, but I think it does ok.

[llamabeast]

But despite the best efforts of the tribe, young newbies still fall victim to the numerous hazards, leading to declining numbers in this remarkable culture.

Actually, I get the impression that the community is still growing nicely, which is impressive so long after release. Newbie games still fill up very quickly (the last one got loads of genuine newbies very fast), and the LlamaServer has no fewer than 20 games on it at the moment (will be 23 in a couple of days), which is really a lot, especially considering it is only one of several servers (and presumably there are any number of people playing MP outside of this forum).

[Dedas]

Yes, the moderate balance is pretty good overall except in a few extreme cases (like MA Ulm). If those nations were brought up to moderate standard I would be a happy camper.

[Tim Brooks]

Hi all. I've been following this thread and thought you should hear the official Shrapnel position with regards to Dominions 3. I will attempt to do this while answering some of what has been said in this thread. I also have a few questions.

A good concept served by the bare minimum acceptable services.

Interesting comment. kasnavada, what would make our services more than the minimum acceptable?

Even forgetting digital distribution (which space empire does), the distribution services doesn't even offer to use "fast" delivery services like UPS or DHL.

Do you really want to get into Space Empires, a game that less than 9 months after release was selling for $10? There's a model we don't care to emulate.

We used to use UPS and Fedex. 1 in every 7 international orders had to be reshipped. That is why we don't use them anymore. Now, on average, we have to reship about 6 packages a year.

However, an option for a faster delivery service than 7 days (or more...) is really needed...

Most packages are delivered within 3-7 days. Any longer is a function of the shipment being held in customs. The same thing happened with both UPS and Fedex.

The cost per copy is higher, but it sells more copies.

This goes to the whole digital distribution model. We have researched this and we use it with a number of our games so we know what is what. The assumption is false when it comes to niche games. A game like Dominions will not sell noticeably more copies. It will just shift a percentage of sales from physical product to digital. And for publishers in niche markets looking to minimize costs this is unacceptable since you will print less physical product and therefore increase costs. Also, distributing a manual in electronic format for a game where the manual is almost a necessity just plays into the pirates hands. Want to know the most searched on term that leads people to Shrapnel Games? 'Dominions 3 Manual'. This accounts for almost one third of all searches that come to our site. We are sort of happy that the pirates have a hard time with the game. Actually that's not true, we are very, very happy that the pirates have a hard time with the game.

Based on the above the only answer would be to go to a totally electronic distribution model. I would love to do this. No inventory hassles, no printers to deal with, fewer employees... the list goes on and on. And one day we may do this, but right now we just don't see it as an option for a game as popular and as niche as Dominions 3. To limit piracy, we would have to go to a system like Steam uses and I personally refuse to do this. I don't think that the person buying the game should be the one penalized for spending their hard earned money in support of our developers.

A thought: Wonder why Steam doesn't sell physical products? I mean, your arguments are we would sell more if we had digital distribution. Wouldn't Steam sell more if they had physical products too? Funny how the digital distribution argument is never turned around.

Want some other interesting facts? We get about 1 support request for every 100 (approximate number) physical games sold. For every download product, we get about 17 support requests for every 100 games sold. Talk about costs. Know what the most expensive single component to a game is? Support. That is why so many of our competitors have such lousy support. So lets do something that increases that cost. In this thread people have talked about getting Dominions cheaper if we had digital distribution. Actually the opposite is true. Digital distributed products cost us more than physically distributed games.

I really want to write more, but have to leave for a meeting now, so I will leave this here and try to get back to it later.

[kasnavada]

Woah, I certainly got more answers than I expected.

Not that I have much more to add anyway, but I'll answer what people ask.

To Tim Brooks :
I said in my post, the bare minimum is (at least for me) what dominions 3 lacks compared to other games in the same category... graphics, UI, AI, shipping possibilities... well AI is a special matter since in most games people think that the AI is weak anyway. And given all possibilities that this particular game proposes it's no wonder that it's easy to outhink it .

I didn't say anything about the music, for example, because it's great. That makes me think that you can do it for the other things that dominions 3 offers.

Well, that means I'll have to comment on your opinion of dominions 3. You say, a niche game. I say : why should it be one ? But comments on this thread (including your answers) makes me believe that dominions 3 wants to remain a niche game, played by a few, known by a few.

I can't help but think : if that or that was better, it might attract more players to try and play the game. It might also be easier to introduce that games to my friends to play with them. It might attract more people, therefore more competition, making the game harder.

That said, I'm nothing but a player. One among many. Some people like the fact that it is a niche game and enjoy playing less known games, because of many personal reasons. And it's not my place to say what the game should be. However, what I can say is what I think could make the game better. And that's what I did.

Do you really want to get into Space Empires, a game that less than 9 months after release was selling for $10? There's a model we don't care to immolate.

That's not what I said, nor want. Actually, I've no complaints about the price. I actually think that some would pay more to get the game faster. What I wanted to say is that I as a customer and probably many others would like the possibility of having to choose how fast the content you sale is shipped.

For example : either ship it with "default" mail service and it comes at reduced price but longer waiting time, or use another one and get it delivered faster (of course the price is higher).

Well, it will make your job less easy and is a selfish demand from some in the playerbase. As justly said above by others, you don't have to obey because I pay for it. I merely suggest it, and I do think it's needed. If you don't, however... well. You certainly have good reasons for it. Reasons that, as a player, I can't know. However, no one's harmed by asking.

(online distribution...)

As for your experience on online distribution, you're saying that it will not sale better, I've got no choice but to believe it.

For your comments on Steam, actually, I'm pretty sure people have been asking for print-outs of the game manuals and live cds and other stuff like this. However, they can answer "we don't do this because so and so company does". For example : for space empire, why should they (steam) sell a hardcopy of the game when you can go to your local game store and buy it ? Or when gamersfront offers the game ? The situation is not the same as Dominions 3 because there are other ways to buy the same product.

Finally, to Agrajag :
About the content of the quotes :
Well, Tim Brooks' post summed it nicely.

About the manual and anti-pirate policy.
I did spend time on the forum and did find the 'I lost my manual' thread. Actually, I'm rather happy I did, because it showed me 2 things : the manual actually is useful (unlike most other games out here), and made me laugh a bit when 1 or 2 pages back the same question was answered because it had no 'I lost my manual' excuse in it.

[Agrajag]

Finally, to Agrajag :
About the content of the quotes :
Well, Tim Brooks' post summed it nicely.

I agree
But I had to respond in spite of Tim's post because I am a follower of the great god Argumemnon and according to our holy Argumentative Codex we are not allowed to "drop" an argument

[Caduceus]

Unfortunately, Argumemnon is a niche god without digital distribution

[llamabeast]

Tim;

Thanks for that answer, that was very satisfactory and thoughtful answer. It's good to see that you've considered the issues carefully and it looks now as if you've taken very sensible decisions.

Also, I just went to dominions3.com to remind myself of how awful it is - and it's been revamped! Hurrah! I don't know how long ago it changed, but when I last looked at it (probably a long time ago to be fair) it was just a "coming soon" page. Now it looks really nice and very professional. The screenshots are well chosen too.

If I may suggest adding another couple of links to the website: a link called "reviews" pointing at the "What they're saying" page on Shrapnel would be an excellent idea (since those reviews are so glowing). Also I'd suggest giving detailed guides and lots of pictures for a couple of races (the guides are pretty much ready in the community and I'm sure people would be happy to let you use them) with little thumbnails for all the other races, showing the amazing range of fascinating things available in the game. The people who like games like Dominions absolutely love reading about such details online, and it would really encourage sales I think. Certainly it would work on me.

Finally a link to a couple of AARs would be good. At the moment there are few high quality AARs around. However, if you said here that you wanted a couple, I'm sure we'd all start beavering away and you could choose the best two and put them up. Seriously, AARs are amazing sales tools, it's very hard to read one for a good game without salivating.