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  #1  
Old March 3rd, 2008, 12:10 AM
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KermNelson KermNelson is offline
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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.

To interact, to understand, to blather on!

NT Jedi posted:
“It's not an opinion... you are changing decided future results for the benefit of winning. Providing yourself an unfair advantage during the game against any opponents human or computer AI is cheating.” (end NT Jedi post)

Yes it is your opinion. You’ve simply restated it. If I saved/replayed a turn I’d be changing the path of the game(as I’ve stated I don’t do this in Dom3 but I will freely admit I do it in many games with the savegame option.) I am providing myself with an advantage during the game in this case only against the AI. I don’t consider it “unfair” or “cheating” because I’m not playing a being. The game has no set of rules. The game only has code. Dom3 allows Mods and I use them as I wish. I use them according to the game’s code. The game’s code is the nearest thing it has to rules and I follow it.

On your generalization to whether I think it is impossible to cheat a singleplayer game, I’d prefer to see the specific game. As I’ve already said I use some game’s ‘cheat codes’ I could debate whether I really thought it was cheating but I am willing to accept some game author’s characterization of them as ‘cheats’.

Your speculation on my playing darts ignores that it is a parlor/pub game with well known rules and I would not be playing “according to the rules” which is a definition of fair. Therefore I would be not be playing fair. But as I’ve stated I play Dom3 by the code while Dom3 doesn’t have rules. So I am playing by the code which is literal computer (instruction) rules(?) in Dom3 and therefore I think I am playing fair not unfair.

NT Jedi posted:
“I see another point you are missing... when someone is cheating whether it's against other human players or against AI opponents they are not only being UNFAIR to their opponents but they are also lying to themselves on the actual skills of their gameplay. Unfortunately many of these individuals continue to cheat because they cannot face losing.”
(Restated “facing a loss” later): “Unfortunately the save/reload you use during games is to provide you the constant victory or more importantly the way to avoid facing a loss.”
(Restated “UNFAIR”): “provides you a PERMANENT CONTINOUS UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.”
(Restated “unfair”): “Yes, mods are a great tool... like any other tool they can be used to provide an unfair advantage if used incorrectly. “(end NT Jedi posts)

As I just explained above from a definition of FAIR from the dictionary I think I am playing fairly. I play by the game’s code which is the closest thing that the game has to ‘rules’. A definition of FAIR is ‘according to the rules.’ So I provide myself with a permanent/continuous advantage, but I don’t consider it ‘unfair’.

I also am quite aware that I am taking additional strengthening measures to make it easier for me to learn a game I am fairly new at and I’ve admitted here so I’m neither “lying to” myself or deceiving others on this board. I have no problem losing except that I don’t want to waste my time at learning the game. I have at no time denied that in other games that I did reload that I didn’t lose either a battle or that I was unfortunately effected some random event. The event happened – it existed. I simply choose (in some other game) where I do save and reload to replay those turns or event having learned from the experience how to do it better if possible or in the case of random events I’ve eliminated the random bad result. I’m not denying any of this, if I was we wouldn’t be having this discussion. (IF I was denying losing a battle, game, or replaying some negative random event, I’d simply have ignored your posts and never entered this entertaining discussion.)

NT Jedi said:
“why don't you try my suggestion. For your next 10 games of each PC_game use the save/reload to change the future anytime you win a major battle. This way you can find the best strategy for making a recovery after major losses and/or important commanders/mages. I'm sure you've spent the last 25 years finding the fastest winning strategy... so it's time you find the best way to recover after major losses.”
(Restated in “If you were so true to the save/reload option for the purpose of strategic reasons then you would have been using the save/reload for the opposite method of improving your strategy after major losses.” (end NT Jedi quotes)

I’ve repeatedly freely admitted I Mod to increase my position: “I simply prefer to have the AI play consistently and increase my starting strength to decrease the learning curve and enjoy the learning process.” And I elaborated that many game companies allow setting adjustment: “Games are created with AI difficulty settings precisely to allow players to choose how hard a learning curve they experience.” Illwinter does this in Dom3’s settings. So your suggestion that I increase my difficulty by intentionally losing battles ignores part of my stated goals: to decrease my learning curve. But in fact in a few games I’ve quite thoroughly learned I do restart battles to see how few troops I can win with. But this is rare and I’m usually getting quite bored with the game because I so thoroughly understand its mechanics. I tend to prefer to buy a new game and learn fresh experiences rather than waste my time on almost trivial refinement. Again as I have stated I play to explore a game: in MMORPGs it is my primary Bartle’s type. I’m an “explorer” not an “achiever” or a “killer”(I think this is a negative term Bartle’s uses for PvPers.) (I my second strongest Bartle’s type is to “socialize” because I enjoy folks and exploring/learning with them.)

NT Jedi posted:
“Mods actually aren't needed even for the worst players. Simply play a very large map requiring 40% of the victory points, choose land nations for AI opponents(not ERMOR, Atlantis or Argatha), human plays a water nation, map has 40% water with no lakes and set AI difficulty on easy. No mods needed and a very easy game for the human player.”

Actually this would be quite boring because it extremely limits my interaction with the AI opponents. I’m too weak on land and they are too weak in the sea. You have repeatedly indication directly or indirectly that I somehow am pursuing an easy victory and avoiding a loss. That’s why I’ve defined the other Bartle’s types: achiever and killer and made it clear I’m NOT either. I don’t mind winning but my enjoyment comes from exploration or in these posts from socializing with other people.

In MMORPGs I love to just travel overland to see the creative and artistic scenery – I explore … I also enjoy exploring how each game works. Much of the reason I wrote Mods to increase my starting advantage was to explore how to mod. I frequently spend more time writing Mods: reading, trialing, and tweaking the mod; than playing the game with the mod. In fact one thing I find very boring in playing is that I have to constantly re-input unit building (or item forging) instructions and constantly move units to the front. Maybe someone has a Mod to do this or I’ve simply overlooked Dom3 ability but I get so tired of repeated builds and moves.


However one thing is still perfectly clear to me – we have different opinions including even your continued insistence that your statements are somehow more than simply your opinion (in my opinion).
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  #2  
Old March 3rd, 2008, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.

If you guys keep quoting each other, you might very well achieve your secret goal of writing the most boring novel ever.
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  #3  
Old March 3rd, 2008, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.



Here foodstamp, have a cake [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cake.gif[/img]
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Old March 3rd, 2008, 05:47 PM

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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.

you are all cheaters and that includes KO

yeah... that'll teach you...

PS KermNelson should go play another game
"In fact one thing I find very boring in playing is that I have to constantly re-input unit building (or item forging) instructions and constantly move units to the front." --> this is dominions 3 in a nutshell
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Old March 4th, 2008, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
Yes it is your opinion. You’ve simply restated it. If I saved/replayed a turn I’d be changing the path of the game(as I’ve stated I don’t do this in Dom3 but I will freely admit I do it in many games with the savegame option.) I am providing myself with an advantage during the game in this case only against the AI. I don’t consider it “unfair” or “cheating” because I’m not playing a being.

Just because you are not playing a being doesn't mean it's not possible to cheat. And since changing the future for only your benefit is not "unfair" then let your next 10 games provide the save/reload benefit to the AI opponents. It's not "unfair" in your opinion... so from now on use the save/reload only when the AI's lose major battles.

LOL

Quote:
KermNelson said:
The game has no set of rules. The game only has code. Dom3 allows Mods and I use them as I wish. I use them according to the game’s code. The game’s code is the nearest thing it has to rules and I follow it.

You follow game code?? How would someone not follow game code?? The game's programming code cannot be changed.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
On your generalization to whether I think it is impossible to cheat a singleplayer game, I’d prefer to see the specific game. As I’ve already said I use some game’s ‘cheat codes’ I could debate whether I really thought it was cheating but I am willing to accept some game author’s characterization of them as ‘cheats’.

Basically this all comes down to you believing it's impossible to cheat in singleplayer games. On this note... you might as well start your games with 10 wraith lords and 200 demon knights at your capital. Seriously it would save you time.


Quote:
KermNelson said:
Your speculation on my playing darts ignores that it is a parlor/pub game with well known rules and I would not be playing “according to the rules” which is a definition of fair. Therefore I would be not be playing fair.
Changing an already decided future within a game is just as fair as changing an already decided future of a thrown dart. The little grand kids call this a "re-do", yet usually by highschool they've grown out of this weakness.

And if changing the future via the save/reload was a legit fair action in singleplayer games then why has this NEVER been documented as saying, "use the save/reload if your opponent has won a major battle"??

Quote:
KermNelson said:
But as I’ve stated I play Dom3 by the code while Dom3 doesn’t have rules. So I am playing by the code which is literal computer (instruction) rules(?) in Dom3 and therefore I think I am playing fair not unfair.

Well if you're playing fair then play a different type of playing fair. The next time you win a major battle, use the save/reload and change your actions.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
So I provide myself with a permanent/continuous advantage, but I don’t consider it ‘unfair’.

Considering all the games you own, how many of these games do you plan on providing the AI opponents the exact same save/reload advantage??


Quote:
KermNelson said:
I also am quite aware that I am taking additional strengthening measures to make it easier for me to learn a game I am fairly new at and I’ve admitted here so I’m neither “lying to” myself or deceiving others on this board.
Using the save/reload after losing a major battle is an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE because the AI opponents do not have the option to use the save/reload. If the developers of any game expected gamers to use the save/reload to change the future then for a more balanced game they would have provided a secret method for AI opponents on harder difficulty levels. The developers would have also written documentation advising to use the save/reload to change already decided game results.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
I have no problem losing except that I don’t want to waste my time at learning the game. I have at no time denied that in other games that I did reload that I didn’t lose either a battle or that I was unfortunately effected some random event. The event happened – it existed. I simply choose (in some other game) where I do save and reload to replay those turns or event having learned from the experience how to do it better if possible or in the case of random events I’ve eliminated the random bad result.
Unfortunately by using such an advantage during games you never learn to deal with important major losses, you never learn strategic ways of rebuilding a crushed empire, you never develop strategic escape methods.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
I’ve repeatedly freely admitted I Mod to increase my position: “I simply prefer to have the AI play consistently and increase my starting strength to decrease the learning curve and enjoy the learning process.” And I elaborated that many game companies allow setting adjustment: “Games are created with AI difficulty settings precisely to allow players to choose how hard a learning curve they experience.”
There's actually no reason to use mods for making the DOM_3 game easier. I provided a great example where without mods the player could learn the game without any danger of being killed for at least a hundred turns.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
Illwinter does this in Dom3’s settings. So your suggestion that I increase my difficulty by intentionally losing battles ignores part of my stated goals: to decrease my learning curve.
Here you don't understand what can be learned from losing major battles. You've always leaned on your experiences being from ways of improving your winning battles. Hence if you were ever faced in a scenario where you've lost major units/places you'd have little to zero experience on trying to stop a strong marching enemy.
You're not the first to hide from dealing with major losses and even losing. Anyone can play a game and give themselves advantages to win, yet only some can play a game they are losing all the way to the end.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
But in fact in a few games I’ve quite thoroughly learned I do restart battles to see how few troops I can win with. But this is rare and I’m usually getting quite bored with the game because I so thoroughly understand its mechanics.

This is improving your offensive strategies yet if you continue playing a game you are losing then you learn to improve your defensive strategies. I can tell you from my own personal experiences it takes courage to keep playing when you know you will be losing the game.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
I tend to prefer to buy a new game and learn fresh experiences rather than waste my time on almost trivial refinement.
By using major constant advantages you're always on the winning edge... and as I've written earlier there's more to learn/experience within a game then just winning.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
NT Jedi posted:
“Mods actually aren't needed even for the worst players. Simply play a very large map requiring 40% of the victory points, choose land nations for AI opponents(not ERMOR, Atlantis or Argatha), human plays a water nation, map has 40% water with no lakes and set AI difficulty on easy. No mods needed and a very easy game for the human player.”

Actually this would be quite boring because it extremely limits my interaction with the AI opponents. I’m too weak on land and they are too weak in the sea.
Actually having the AI opponents on easy and Independents set on strength 8 will allow most of the water nations plenty of time to get a strong holding on the land. Ask any members on the forum and they will provide other legit examples for an easy game without using mods.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
You have repeatedly indication directly or indirectly that I somehow am pursuing an easy victory and avoiding a loss.
Well if you cannot remember the last SP game where you were losing and played to the end then you have a history of avoiding loss and seeking easy victories. Review your gaming history.

Quote:
KermNelson said:
However one thing is still perfectly clear to me – we have different opinions including even your continued insistence that your statements are somehow more than simply your opinion (in my opinion).
Yes, you believe it's not possible to cheat in an SP game which I've never heard or read until your posts. I suggest gathering an opinion from other individuals from your other games by asking:
"If I use the save/reload to change an already decided future within a singleplayer game to provide myself an advantage over AI opponents is it cheating?"
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Old March 4th, 2008, 08:15 AM

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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.

Talk about missing the point.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 08:36 AM

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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.

I just hope you don't see this forum as an unfriendly place after all this KermNelson! This sure is one crazy discussion.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.

It's funny how MMORPeger abord games.

It reminds me hundreds of threads by WoW fans asking for no corpse retrieval on Vanguard forums.

Finally the Vanguard death system was made cooler than first planned, a decision disgusting most hardcore old-EQ fans.

But their reaction on the forums gave Vanguard the image of an hardcore game, so the WoW generation avoided it too.

And Vanguard was one of the biggest failures in MMO history.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 06:30 PM

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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.

Aha, I had assumed you were new, KermNelson. Apologies.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: Preferences & opinions R personal.

No problem ... Llamabeast

... details ... I boo boo'd badly ...

I've just checked EU/HOI manuals and arrggh! They don't show the cheatcodes. That's what I get for relying on memory. I got this sudden fact checking panic attack and I was wrong - no listed cheat codes even if they are in the gamecode.

However since I was boring myself with manuals:
pg 47 of Rome Total War manual:

"Load Game and Save Game allow you to save your position and reload it later (or even undo some terrible calamity by stepping back to an earlier game date, not that you'd ever cheat like this, oh no)."

While clearing labeling this tactic as a 'cheat' the humorous response (sarcasm) obviously indicates the manual's expectation of use for exactly this purpose.

On usable codes to change your stats in Neverwinter Nights manual (pg 171): gives a table of "Common Commands"

Some are: ModAge # or SetAge #, also a series ModSTR # thru ModCHA #, and SetSTR # thru SetCHA #, GiveXP #, GiveLevel #.

This is the D&D system so this allows the player to quite effectively change (cheat?) his character stats and level. There are other useful commands. My point being that some games do release in their manual cheatcodes and/or modcodes that can be used to radically change gamebalance.
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