MA Ulm Pretender

[Baalz]

I did not mean to disparage Arco as being easy to play, but I do think Arco is one of the stronger nations if played right. I was referring to the opening turns in response to your question about why Ulm doesn't tend to last very long. Coincidentally enough the game I tied for second as Ulm in was won by MA Arcoscephale, guess it didn't get added to the hall of fame.

[Tuidjy]

Coincidentally, being second in a game means exactly nothing. If you are Ulm,
and start next to my Pythium, you can be second by just saying "I'll be your
forge *****, no need for your big bad Lord of Fertily to fertilize me". There
is one spot that matters in Dominions. And it is not number two.

By the way, your Arco example was messed up big time. I call shenanigans. I ran
it myself, except that I forgot to assume that the Arco player is playing to
lose. I still kept your assumption that his lab burned on turn four, and kept on
burning so that he could not even research Body Ethereal. Hey, it is possible,
and more likely that MA Ulm putting up a fight that does not involve grabbing
its own knees.

First, allow me to note that my arco army was ready on turn 6, seven turns before
Ulm was, and that the elephants were used in conquest, as opposed to the
battleaxe infantry that is about the worst choice against indies. So I send them
to visit Ulm's capital, as opposed to make Ulm's troops actually move, for which
we know they are particularly unsuited. Of course, your scenario also assumed
that. It is not as if Ulm would have a chance if their smiths had to chase Arco
around as if it collected lands that did not happen to have PD 40.

Then, I actually bothered positioning and scripting Arco's forces. I did not
replace the hypaspists with something more useful for my tactics, but I still
placed 10 of them in such a way that they will draw the PD's attention, and I
ordered them to guard a commander in the upper right corner. Now if the Arco
player had a clue, these would be hoplites - heavier armour, cheaper, and mobing
slowlier, all of which are pluses in this case.

Remember, kids. PD is stupid, and cannot be scripted, so you can abuse it any
way you want. You know how fast it moves, and you know it will go for the
closest target. Thus, I positioned 10 of my elephants so that they would come
up on the infantry slowly chasing the hyps from below, and wipe them out on
contact. Using hold and attack closest, I made sure it happened as far away from
the front as possible.

The rest of the hyps and elephants were on guard commander in the bottom
rear corner. My commanders (mages which I was using as grunts, because I needed
grunts for this retarded army composition)

What happened: PD fired at the shielded infantry, and killed one, which was
lucky. Because I did not want to play unfairly, the real arbalesters were
scripted at fire large monsters. Because I did not want to lose, I did not
have elephants anywhere but in the corners, so they missed. The poor smiths,
not having any targets, proceeded to waste fatigue.

Turn 2 some arbalests fired. They did nothing. The smiths wasted some fatigue.

Turn 3 some arbalests fired, don't ask me to explain how. A smith burned a hyp.

Turn 4 lotsa arbalests fired. Two hyps died, three elephants were scratched.
Some of the pd stopped chasing my commanders' bodygaurds, and tickled some
elephants. The elephants hit the PD, killed half, and failed to rout the rest.

Turn 5 the unrouted PD keeps chasing the hyps. The 10 elephants killed
practically all of them. Some arbalests fired in that melee, to no effect. The
smiths are still firing from way too far away, doing zip.

Turn 6, my bottom row commander retreats, his bodyguards (10 hyps, 15 elephants)
attack. The 10 elephants from the top row waste time finishing off the remaining
PD. The smiths are falling asleep.

Turn 7, the PD arbalesters nail the bottom rear commander as they shoot at his
bodyguards (6 of them remain, and are still drawing fire) The commanders dead,
the bodyguards attack.

Turn 9, the 10 elephants hit the chainmail infantry. Bad luck, they barely reach
them.

Turn 11, the 3 remaining elephants rout. The infantry is nearly halved. The 15
elephants, having outdistanced the 10 hyps hit the PD arbalesters, without
having suffered any damage. The real albalesters are shooting at the melee on
the top row. At this point, Arco has three commanders left, huddling behind the
10 hyps. I am getting scared the battleaxe infantry will hit them from behind
and rout Arco.

Turn 12, the 6 bodyguards on the top row rout 30 of Ulm's infantry. The 15
elephants in Ulm's rear wipe out the arbalesters, PD or not. Ulm routs.
Too damn many smiths wave woken up, shame.

Result: disaster for Ulm. Arco loses 8 elephants, and 7 infantry. They also
lose 3 mages, which would have fared better, had they been grunt commanders.
only 6 smiths die. Could have been better.

Now, as homework, please run the same scenario with body ethereal and luck
tossed in, and with the right kind of infantry and commanders for Arco.
Or use Caelum, and Arrow Fend... Or toss in the SC that my Caelum always had.

[ComTrav]

So, newbie question (although I do like MA Ulm)--

What are the theoritical counters to some of the above situations? Besides, obviously, playing MA Arco yourself--are awake size 6 SCs (or playing a bless or elephant country) the only options?

[Xietor]

Awake size 6 sc pretender. For starters, his presence may make someone else appear to be an easier target. 2nd. Father of winters with early alt3/ench 2 buffs and some constr 0 armor is a terror.

[Baalz]

My goodness this is rather silly, you're being a bit abrasive and I don't really feel like playing "in theory" vs constantly changing scenarios. My comment about being second was in response to the assertion that Ulm always seems to die early, I felt that was relevant. Arrow fend? I thought we were talking about early rushes. If we're talking about 6th level spells lets see how mammoths fare against 15 magma eruption spammers with crusher linebackers. I ran a simple scenario to show that it was quite possible for Ulm to win vs a large group of elephants supported by astrologers in year one without a SC pretender and I didn't use particularly fancy tactics on either side. You're entitled to go on believing whatever the heck you want.

[Shovah32]

I'm with Baalz here. We could probably run through specific tactics and counter tactics all day without finding something unbeatable when both sides have equal resources(research time ect). I also think Ulm can survive through the early game - even against elephants.

[Endoperez]

I like Ulm. I'd like to see Ulm as a viable choice. But Ulm can't rush itself, except perhaps with a pretender. Because of that, rushing Ulm is safe. Ulm can react, but it can't counter-rush you.

I have never rushed with elephants, or been rushed against with them. From Tuidjy's post, I think he knows very well how to do it, and what one should have available before considering a rush. He's stating something, and Baalz/Shovah and sometimes me - we are reacting, giving counter-examples to the SPESIFIC example Tuidjy gave. We can always come up with something, given a while, but we'd have had to prepare for it from turn 1 if this were about a real game. We wouldn't know which NATION attacks us, much less about the counters. But rushing? It's easy, just do what you normally do to expand? He'd know what's the best Ulm can throw, it's mages, it's spells, how it's PD is organized and how it moves, what units are available and how they're usually used.

Unless Ulm has something going in for it that would force Tuidjy to change his tactic, we and Ulm is the reactor, the passive side, and the rusher is the aggressor, and the aggressor is in better situation. Tuidjy's plan is, basically "build elephants, research Thaumaturgy, rush". Ulm needs Thaumaturgy for Bonds of Fire to counter an early rush, Evocation for battle whammies and Conjuration or Construction for Summon Earth Power or Earth Boots before it's able to use most of them. Tuidjy can concentrate on Thaumaturgy and get the high Thaumaturgy spells much faster than Ulm can get anything better than Magma Bolts.
It seems to me that unless Ulm gets vastly superior numbers of elite units or of mages, it's trying to negate it's opponents' advantages instead of building on its own strengths. Again, that's passive, that's reacting, that's bad.

If Ulm can actually throw up castles faster than other nations and out-produce others in troops and mages and research; or if there's some as-of-yet undiscovered tactic that's going to make Ulm an early rusher, Ulm's going to be the reactor, the passive one, the one that is rushed, the one that can be killed off early.

I think Tuidjy is right, even though I don't like it. I doubt he likes it either - everyone seems to have a soft spot for Ulm, who are supposed to be awesome but aren't. Ulm is easy to kill in a rush. Good player can beat you, but it's harder than for some other nations.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Good post Endoperez. I agree with that.

I too would like to see ulm a better nation because it is is a cool idea.

If ulm could build castles faster, it may be enough to balance it. And by faster I mean being able to build a forest fortess in 1 turn, and a castle in 2 turns.
As is, it is hard for ulm can not build enough troops, (or smiths) in the early game to be competitive.

Baalz. You if anyone will be able to instruct people to play ulm as effectivly as possible. But the problem is the other nation can use tactics that are just as strong. Ulm could win yes. But that comes down to player skil mattering more then the nation. If the opponent is equally skilled, ulm is at a disadvantage.