Lethality of SAMs

[Marcello]

hveldenz said:
Thanks to Narwan and Marcello. I understand that many of the SAMs are airburst devices, but I was under the impression that Stinger types were direct hits by IR tracking. I have a mental image of a Strela up the tailpipe of an A-10 engine...

AFAIK, things like Strela or Igla do typically have contact/grazing fuzes. It is the bigger radar missiles that do rely more on proximity fuzes, although contact fuzes are still fitted albeit more on "if all else fails" basis.

hveldenz said:
In regards to Marcello - Would actually AA be the better purchase if one knows they will have to defend against a significant number of airstrikes?

I noted that most players seem to prefer guns because guns are dual purpose and it is better to spend points on
something that could be used against ground targets instead of specialized assets that will be useless if the adversary does not buy airstrikes.
In terms of effectiviness it is hard to tell. Personally I use mostly SAMs but that is because I play a mod that include bleeding edge tech SAMs and I am not playing against human opponents anyway. I suspect that going the gun route is the safest bet, point wise but I have never tested that.

[Mobhack]

I generally prefer something with AAA radar, and lots of ammo to throw about. So guns tend to win out there - missiles usually have low supply.

So - ZSU-23-4 (and these appear in 1968 or so - quite early!), Gepards etc are my favourites, and in the early years then I will make do with 40mm radar or 57mm Soviet (if available with AAA radar FC), on a hill in the deployment zone and some trucks to move at least some of them about.

If I use a missile system, it has to have the range to intercept as they arrive (so SP-rapiers, later model Geckos etc) with radar FC and >4 missiles, and ammo vehicles to hand.

The advantage of the missile system is that if it has enough range, it fires just before the plane arrives often enough, and can possibly intercept a PGM launcher. So it's worth having a section or 2 of such, but SP-AAA with radar is my close cover to my armoured columns. Longer ranged shoulder SAMs can have enough range to fire at approachers, but generally lack the sights to see through smoke etc so can have LOS blocked - a radar guided SP-SAM is a better bet IMHO.

I don't rely much on shoulder fired SAMs, though a few are a useful insurance policy. It is too much bother to keep them supplied (uses up ammo units that I'd rather use on ATGM more often than not). Can be nasty little things when there is not much ECM on the planes - e.g. 1968-72 or so. Also good if you are doing something 'commando' - if dropping a desant of infantry in his rear, add some shoulder SAM and you then have something to bother any nasty attack helos he may try to use on your commando raid. (Take in an ammo crate or 2 if possible as well)

Plus as noted above - a gun system, if no air shows up at the party can be used to bother ground targets whereas a SAM (unless it is an ADATS, which of course is usable as an ATGM if needed) - has no useful application.

Cheers
Andy

[Wdll]

I mostly play as Greece and there are no AAA guns that don't need a truck, so I find them a bit useless. Combined with the lower stats of the SAM batteries and mobile SAMs.

Then again i "refuse" to use any type of artillery that requires a seperate truck.

The few times that I used mobile AAA guns (playing PBEM as Syria for example) they were very bad at getting hit, but also very good at hitting enemy helicopters and also forcing the enemy to go out of their way to avoid getting detected by them.

I do find the mobile SAMs not being very accurate against modern planes so I find myself in a 12000 points game to have 5 mobile SAMs and 4 Inf-Stinger. I don't like having so many, but cluster bombs are a ....to deal with.

[PlasmaKrab]

Regarding inf-SAMs, I have been surprised to find out that even the most advanced MANPADS were hardly even a nuisance against any plane better than a first-generation F-16. And I'm talking about missiles in the range of a FIM-92J or Igla-S or even better fictional stuff.
It looks like the EW scaling doesn't work exactly the same way on planes and AA, or maybe it's the absence of radar FC that does it. But that's another matter.

Basically, I find that buying a cheap enough MANPADS platoon or AA gun section provides less of a kill capability than a no-entry zone for enemy helicopters for a few turns. The nuisance is enhanced by the fact that it calls up precious enemy arty support to silence those AA units.

But maybe I should play less high-tech

[Sarunas]

Just lost a Jaguar in 1979 (48 damage points, I guess the pilot was pulverised...) to some Soviet standoff system (Gainful?).

[DRG]

PlasmaKrab said:
Regarding inf-SAMs, I have been surprised to find out that even the most advanced MANPADS were hardly even a nuisance against any plane better than a first-generation F-16.

If you find any hard evidence that the "advanced" MANPADS are anything BUT a nuisance to the more "modern" aircraft let us know. We think they are being modelled realistically.

Don

[PanzerBob]

IIRC Reports I've read over the years from pilots, fixed and non-fixed wing,(Mudmovers in particular) in modern hot zones, AAA is their biggest fear. (Even the unguided stuff as it has nothing to jam or give it away.) Transport pilots fear everything. All based on the armour and CM their craft carry plus it's size and nibblness. A good pilot with capable craft obviously has much better odds underfire. Missions as well are planned to avoid anti-air defences as well.

As far as damage taken some A10's have taken some what looks to be major damage and completed their missions.
We must remember as combat aircraft they can take some punishment, it's their nature.

IMHO

[mr_clark]

I think after the last couple of changes with EW etc SAM and AAA is very well modeled in game. I play mainly modern games (2000s) and I now "love" that an incoming SU-25 strike doesn't get killed by the loads of MANPADS the AI buys...

And I don't think area SAMs are ineffective. Especially the modern russian/soviet systems like SA-10 or SA-11 are quite good at blowing up some nasty A-10 or F-16 coming in to haras a peacefull tank company...