End Game Slaughter Moves

[K]

Tuidjy said:
> But, if you need someone to hold your hand, here is a foolproof way to beat
> the situation described above. [Mediocre plan full of unwarranted assumptions]

Why on earth would anyone have mages scripted to retreat/return patrolling his home province?!

Because you said:

Tuidjy said:
Foodstamp, how do you counter the Mists of Deception combo? Please share your incredible insight with us! Being less knowledgable that you obviously are, I do not know how to take a castle guarded by mages that cast Mists of Deception, Quagmire, Storm, a mix of damage spells, and ritual of returning. And are back next turn, of course

So yeh, now it just sounds like you are complaining for the sake of complaining. Either its a non-home castle protected by domes and they can't come back next turn, or its a home province protected by domes and they are patrolling it. Those are the only two situations where you are forced into an unfair situation with a MoD and a battlefield spell, and I've outlined tactics to beat them. Any other situation where someone has good mages casting big spells can be handled with any number of other tactics like killing the mages, getting them in melee before they can cast, or casting the spell first.

This whole exchange just reinforces my opinion that the people who cry exploit are just bitter about some loss in a previous game. I know one player whom I played against who started a campaign to stop every good tactic I used by calling it an exploit.

It makes me sad.

[kasnavada]

Except that this particular combo is on a bug list... neither spell should go on. That point are once again forgotten by those that do not think it's an exploit. Obviously because they do not even know what an exploit is.

The very definition of an exploit is using something that doesn't work as intended, and the very definition of a bug is that it doesn't work as intended. It is a bug -> using that combo is an exploit. No matter what counters you have. That's basically it.

And please stop the "whining" argumentation copied straight from eve online forums... I don't really think those forum should have the kind of "ambiance" they have there. It would basically kill Dominions.

[Edi]

If anyone thinks this they can have their way on this forum by trying to browbeat others, they have another think coming. If necessary, I have absolutely no compunctions about laying into people and forcibly shutting this discussion down if it gets out of hand and I'll flat out state beforehand that if it comes down to that, I will be indiscriminatingly brutal to all sides who make trouble.

The discussion has fortunately calmed down a bit from yesterday evening, but it still looks like feelings are running a bit high.

Personally, I find it hard to disagree with the definitions kasnavada presented in the previous post.

At the same time, it is quite clear that not all exploits are equal. As stated, MoD+BF Enchantment is one of the most egregious ones and quickmarching slow units due to the movement bug is another one I personally find offensive. Same with sneaking non-stealthy troops out of castles, but it's not available to everyone. Still annoying.

I see no point in flaming people for holding those opinions because they can be quite solidly backed up with reasoning. No need to flame people who don't give as much of a damn about them either, but it's also clear that these two viewpoints in the same MP game can lead to quite a clash.

I should also add a thank you for bringing the stacking domes issue to my attention. Onto the shortlist it goes...

[Twan]

As it is the quasi unique huge issue, I wonder if Mist of Deception is a so usefull spell that it should remain in the game without its bug fixed.

I mean why not, if mages retreat/death doesn't end the mist in the next patch, just removing this spell untill it's fixed ?

There are plenty of air battle summons that can replace it for people who really use MoD to summon chaff (if they exist ; I wonder if someone would really use this spell without the mist bug, actually even without a BE the never ending mist look only usefull for some abuses : if it's not exploiting a nasty combo with a BE it's exploiting the turn 50/75 auto-rout, and it may be an as nasty trick if you cut retreat).

[K]

Twan said:
As it is the quasi unique huge issue, I wonder if Mist of Deception is a so usefull spell that it should remain in the game without its bug fixed.

I mean why not, if mages retreat/death doesn't end the mist in the next patch, just removing this spell untill it's fixed ?

There are plenty of air battle summons that can replace it for people who really use MoD to summon chaff (if they exist ; I wonder if someone would really use this spell without the mist bug, actually even without a BE the never ending mist look only usefull for some abuses : if it's not exploiting a nasty combo with a BE it's exploiting the turn 50/75 auto-rout, and it may be an as nasty trick if you cut retreat).

Air magic only has two good battlefield spells, which are MoD and Fog Warriors. Considering that Air magic is the weakest of all the magics considering its very high casting requirements and fatigue, its lack of AoE spells, and difficulty in crafting boosters, then removing MoD is just nerfing an already weak Path.

I wouldn't play an Air nation if MoD was gone. Period.

[triqui]

K said:Air magic only has two good battlefield spells, which are MoD and Fog Warriors
Considering that Air magic is the weakest of all the magics considering its very high casting requirements and fatigue, its lack of AoE spells, and difficulty in crafting boosters, then removing MoD is just nerfing an already weak Path.

Are you joking? Thunderstrike spam is awesomely powerful. Air is THE combat magic.

Plus i consider "storm", "wrath from sky","fend arrows" and "wind guide" very good battlefield spells. On par, if not better, than water, fire or earth battlefield spells.

[Baalz]

K said:
Air magic only has two good battlefield spells, which are MoD and Fog Warriors. Considering that Air magic is the weakest of all the magics considering its very high casting requirements and fatigue, its lack of AoE spells, and difficulty in crafting boosters, then removing MoD is just nerfing an already weak Path.

I wouldn't play an Air nation if MoD was gone. Period.

I call bull on this. Arrow fend, mass flight, and wrathful skies are all very good spells in several situations. Lighting is the only consistent, easy to access AN damage. Air magic gives you access to flying items - *huge*....seeking arrows - *huge*. I've *never* used MoD and find air power to be considerable.

[thejeff]

One of the problems with Air is that there's little synergy.

Air lets you boost archery and shut it down with storm.

Mass Flight can be great, but again storm shuts it down.

To use Storm Power to boost your air magic, you need a Storm.

Which shuts down archery and flight and cripples your precision.

Particularly frustrating since several of the Air nations are also archer heavy nations, Caelum and Man.

[lch]

Baalz said:
I've *never* used MoD and find air power to be considerable.

Same here. Well, I think I may have used it once, but didn't find it that awesome a spell to start with. Fog warriors is an awesome spell, though. As are lots of other things from Air.

[Tuidjy]

Buddy, it's been a long time since I've had a loss. And the only time someone
used a MoD on me, I was lucky enough to be immune to the BE he went with.

You have outlined tactics to beat an one-trick, already defeated pony. Why do
you assume that the mages in the NON-home, NON-domed province will be using the
same tactics as the mages in domed capital.

But this is all theoretical bull. It seems that your suggestion for beating MoD
is "cast it first". When the opponent is acting first, make sure that you fake
him the first time. This assumes that he is stupid enough to retreat the forces
patrolling his capital (as opposed to being immune to his own BE). It also
assumes that he is too dumb to have a second set of mages scripted to cast the
exploit. They would not cast it the first time because it will be already on,
and a fake that lasts five turns and still draws gems is a hell of a fake.

Anyway, I am officially done with this stupid discussion. I will not join games
where this exploit is not banned, and as clearly there are some people who do not
consider it an exploit, I will ask the host to state it before hand. I will also
no longer discuss exploits, because there is no point. I just hope that the
developers make it so that when a mage leaves the battlefield, the enchantment
goes "pfft".