Tank Crew Casualties

[Cross]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for that...I didn't think of those things.

Most of tanks were Cromwells with perhaps 20% Challengers, so it's not like these guys were in Sherman 'Tommy cookers'.

In the first study I sited, they actually broke down the data by the type of tank (mostly). The Sherman was probably the worst, as you'd expect; but the Cromwell was in a group that fared quite well.

In my post and data I took into account both dead and wounded, so I'm fully aware of that part; but I'm not really sure what 'combat inneffective' encompasses?

I assume it can't mean anything temporary, as routed/fleeing takes care of that; and crew casualties are not available by the next battle in a campaign. Is it serious shell shock?

[Marek_Tucan]

Or the "missing" crew transfers to posts where their experience can't be utilised? One of the guys who is often credited with knocking out Wittmann's Tiger in Villers Bocage and who most likely didn't KO Wittmann, but he did three Tigers that day, was almost for a first day in the Firefly gunner's seat and short afterwards was relegated to another tank as driver IIRC.

[Cross]

Bob,

You are seeing 50 casualties out of 100 in German tanks before bailout losses.

The 4 studies of US and British tanks in my original post show:

1. 43% casualties (includes losses after bail out)
2. 22% casualties (using data of 352 serious losses over half of which burned)
3. 40% casualties (includes losses for all reasons, in & out of tank)
4. 28% casualties

'Casualties' mean 'not fit for duty'.

Sounds like even your excellent survival (make it out of the tank) rate of 50% is too low. The studies seem to show that about 70 to 75% should make it out of the tank OK.

My experience with Britsh tanks is that probably around 15% to 20% are making it out of the tank OK. This may not be accurate, but I do know it's way way less than 50%.

[DRG]

There are a number of factors that determine crew survival. The "Survivability" number has an effect but it's use is mainly for the vehicle itself. However having a higher Survivability rating does help the crew once the armour is pierced when crew survival is determined as is the penetration ability of the shell that pierced the armour and it's warhead size and the type of shell that did the piercing. Then there's a healthy dose of randomness tossed in as well so the same gun penetrating the same tank over and over and over does not give the same result over and over and over.

The code is not simple. Many, many factors come into play to produce what appears to be a simple result. We have found that making small adjustments can sometimes have totally un-intended consequences so we are more and more living by the adage that " if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and we don't consider the crew survival code broken.

Don

[Cross]

Thanks Don,

One of things I love about SP is how the random results are 'realistic' as far as wargames go.

I understand you don't want to mess with the code, but hey if this crew survival issue makes it onto the bottom of your list to be looked at in the future then great.

This is just feedback, and an interesting subject, but I trust to you guys to make the best decisions for the game in the long run. You've done a pretty good job so far.

Cheers,
Simon

[chuckfourth]

Hi Cross
I have had a thought on this topic.
In game people commonly buy a king tigers, stalins, 17 pdrs ect. So when comparing game statistics with 'real' statistics we would have to consider that on average, in-game the tanks armour may be overmatched by a bigger factor than in real life, so the game results may be correct or in fact underestimates.
I would have thought that a tank that burned regularily would have a lower survivability than an 'average' tank.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Cross]

Hi Chuck,

Yes I'm sure that typical SP battles are more intense, and at closer ranges than the average WWII engagement. Weren't about half actual WWII casualties caused by artillery?

That said, most of my tank losses in 1944 have been to 75mm or 50mm guns; I do recall losing 1 of those 20 tanks to a Tiger.

I'm sure you're also right about lower crew survival for tanks that burn, but all the data seems to indicate I should be getting higher crew survival than I am.

Keep in mind that I retire crews to the rear ASAP, I almost never use them for scouting etc.

I think I'll continue to watch and record my crew survival rate.

cheers
Cross

[Cross]

ps.

If you haven't seen it, here's a video showing 3 or 4 crew bailing out of a burning Panther just shot by a US Pershing at close range:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l_ZDBinC0XI

for the full story see here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jt5bJQOkI1g