Casting first in defence + endgame spells

[Ironhawk]

4 domes is not effective cover in the endgame tho, when your opponent can amass an array of gem-poor spells to toss at them until they fail. If its really true that domes of the same type can stack tho, thats a pretty huge bug. You should *definitely* not be able to do that - its way too big of an advantage.

As for the defenders advantage - I dont see it as a problem. I mean you guys are listing a way, way endgame case for the failure of a mechanic. But the truth is that it works fine for the other 90% of the game. I think that if the dome issue were resolved that the defender issue would cease to be a problem since you could pound any stationary force to dust with artillery and assassination spells.

[Zeldor]

Voice of Apsu as dome breaker is bug too.

[Micah]

Huh, I love me some rain of stones, and it's one of the few ways to keep astral magic on the battlefield from being even more absurd in the late game (Astral mages tend to be fairly squishy...astrologers and the like). Having 30 mages spamming soul slay and enslave mind with a light of the northern star up is pretty absurd to have to deal with if they're all lucky, misted and army of whatever'd, especially if you don't have any national astral (magic duel anyone?). I really really really like that the attacker has to be careful with their squishies.

As has been previously pointed out in this thread, if you're assaulting someone at their strongest point you're DOING SOMETHING WRONG. Force them to come out of their hole. If you're playing a VP game recognize that sometimes the game is effectively over before the last VP is capped. If you're running a race and someone's 5 feet from the goal and you're a mile back you don't get to complain that it's nearly impossible to catch him, even though the race isn't technically over yet.

I love elegant solutions to problems though, and I'm not really one for the "stack my army til it's bigger than his army and let them pound each other" school of thought. I'd much prefer to lure in an enemy, decimate their mages and then have my way with their ground forces. That's strategy, not just having a bigger stick. This might be why I hate games once they get past the phase of having all the research done...armies get too big and the solution devolves into having one that's even bigger. Not my style.

[Twan]

As for the defenders advantage - I dont see it as a problem. I mean you guys are listing a way, way endgame case for the failure of a mechanic.

I list a problematic category of spells. My view is battlefield instant offensive spells are only good for the game if the opponent can eventually counter them (be him attacker or not), and it's illogical that he can't use the counters if his mages have access to them (if my mages can cast army of gold, I see no reason for them to wait to cast it... after all ennemy rain of stones).

The problem is "endgame" mostly because most of these spells and counters are rather high level, but the rare cases where a nation can pull a round one casting destructive script in midgame (ie : chained earthquakes to kill your mages with body ethearal to protect his own) are as problematic IMO.

ps : I'm not saying mages shouldn't be able to destroy entire armies. Simply if the opponent know what you will use and have mages able to cast the counter spells, a good script should allow him to survive, and it's not the case actually.

[Aezeal]

This might be why I hate games once they get past the phase of having all the research done...armies get too big and the solution devolves into having one that's even bigger. Not my style.

--> this is like totally not so.. end game small forces can kill big armies and it's about how you use what you have.

[Meglobob]

Twan, the problem in your particular game was not the dominions endgame but the victory conditions of your MP game.

It was essentially, owning 1 VP for so many turns I believe. So once a nation was strong enough to get it, castle it then it was effectively game over. As the defending player could put everything he had into defending it for the limited number of turns you had to defend it.

Culmative VP's are not a good idea, I speak from previous experience.

Multiple VP's would have stretched your forces more thinly and given the attacker/s more chance.

[Twan]

Putting everything has nothing to do with it.

To cast master Enslave (without losing communion slaves) you need 6 mages (one casting LoNS, 4 slaves, master with S5 and matrix).
To cast Undead Mastery you need the D7 guy summoning your tartarians.
You need one more S mage for antimagic.
To cast Rain of Stones you need one rare indie mage (adept of metal order) or one tartarian titan with their most common paths, or any E3 mage empowered A1.
To cast something protecting your mages against rain of stones you need one E4 (army of...) or one A4 mage (fog warriors).
To block ennemies in castle gates you need 20 or so heavy infantry or living statues, and a storm to make fliers useless (staff on one commander or cast by a mage).

Total : the fight would have been exactly similar with just the 10-12 mages with the needed paths + say 30 hoplites. It's far to be "putting everything" a nation has in endgame (the only difficulty is gathering mages with the good paths). I remember games where I could have defended half my forts with that at the same time.

My additionnal mages have only dammaged my own troops (one casting wrathfull skies on my non-shock resistant army), and my SCs never reached the ennemies.

[Valerius]

Micah already said most of what I wanted to say but I'll add that I don't think the counter to these spells is to give attacking armies a free pass (a chance to buff before the defender's spells take effect) but to use a different force to attack (in fact, I'd say these spells are the counter to large armies/squads of mages and are working as intended). The decision of whether to attack and with what forces is just as much a part of the strategy as unit placement and scripting. Just as a solo SC may be met with an SC-killing squad so might an army be met with these spells. I don't see any reason why they should be guaranteed a chance to buff. It's like saying you have one tool and you want apply it to all situations as opposed to using something better suited to the job.

It is also worth noting that the changes you propose would have different effects on the direct damage spells vs. the MR resist spells. I think army of gold will reduce the effectiveness of rain of stones or earthquake to a greater degree than antimagic will the death/astral spells, especially since you can increase your penetration through boosters or adding mages to the communion. As Micah noted the net result might be to make astral nations even more powerful.