something I do not like in gold patch

TerranC · #1 April 15th, 2002, 09:24 PM

Actually, I like the Idea that engine weapons made more devastating as it give those almost dead empires hope

And rightfully also, which gives you another reason to think and counterdevelop rather than keep building souped up dreadnoughts over and over again.

Wardad · #2 April 15th, 2002, 09:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by oleg:
Version 1.65:

"8. Changed - Ships and fighters with zero supplies will not be able to fire any of their weapons."

The idea is sound but it makes engine destroying weapons too powerfull... ...Since every military ship from now on must carry supply storagies, why not give this ability to ship hulls ?

I think the move supplies to hull idea is good fix all around.
I use engine damage weapons because they are to powerfull to ignore. I know other players complain about them, and the sizing of the reserves.

------------------------------------------------

Damn, Another upgrade!!!

PvK · #3 April 15th, 2002, 11:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
...
This is because it makes sense to me that engines could create energy for the rest of the ship via their operation
Engines use supplies, they don't generate any.

In game terms, no, but in terms of what they represent, a propulsion engine can often generate power as a side effect. Since SE4 isn't detailed enough to model this, it can be represented fudgily by giving the engines more supplies, representing their ability to generate power from fuel.

quote:

My objection is because of the question "Why can't I replace that supply tank with two engines, and just unplug/not use those two? It would double my supply storage!

My explanation is that the ship design system is obviously abstract rather than literal. If you did that, it would be a supply generator component, and rated as "larger" than the engine Version. My rationalization is that research of a vehicle size class allows a design with so many engines, with some trade-off if engine numbers are reduced, but deploying an engine system as a supply generator, on top of a full complement of engines that your designers can make work, would result in more space being taken away from the non-engine component ability of the design. I.e., it would count as a larger non-engine component. Conversely, an engine is probably larger than other 10kT components (hence its 20kT damage capacity), but costs the design less lost space. That is, supply storage _IS_ like an engine that just "generates" supplies. At least, that's how I try to make sense of it.

PvK

PvK · #4 April 15th, 2002, 11:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Wardad:

...
I use engine damage weapons because they are to powerfull to ignore. I know other players complain about them, and the sizing of the reserves.

Seems to me that it would help (at least for mods) would be to make "damages engines only" and "damages weapons only" into separate abilities from "skips armor and shields." Since they're currently damage types, this would probably mean needing to make more damage types.

Suicide Junkie · #5 April 15th, 2002, 11:48 PM

PVK:
"That is, supply storage _IS_ like an engine that just "generates" supplies. At least, that's how I try to make sense of it."

Ah HA!
I think I see our problem. You see supplies as power (reactors), while I see them as fuel.

I am curious as to how your reactor model explains "running out of supplies" and the fact that even one supply component can use all of its supplies anywhere from instantly to year-long spans.

There are mods which change supplies into reactor power, by having reactors that generate as much as they can store each turn.

PvK · #6 April 16th, 2002, 12:04 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Ah HA!
I think I see our problem. You see supplies as power (reactors), while I see them as fuel..

Ya, I see supplies as various forms of fuel and food and spare parts and ammunition. I'm not entirely satisfied with these all being one value in SE4, but it's ok.

quote:

I am curious as to how your reactor model explains "running out of supplies" and the fact that even one supply component can use all of its supplies anywhere from instantly to year-long spans.

The engines still require fuel to run them. Their high supply "storage" compared to "Supply Storage" components reflects their ability to generate energy as they burn fuel. Using supplies "instantly" (in the case of a lot of fighting or component use) means they burned a lot of fuel to generate power to run demanding components. During long-distance travel, a ship won't need to run its components very much (but will still use power and food and spare parts and other supplies, although we don't have a per-turn supply use ability in SE4 (yet?)).

quote:

There are mods which change supplies into reactor power, by having reactors that generate as much as they can store each turn.

If there were a way to do this without using the solar-based ability, I would have put this in my Proportions mod. Sadly, I don't think there is a way to mod this currently without linking to the number of suns in the system, which to me was worse than the abstraction of just adding more supplies to represent generation.

For instance, for Quantum reactors, I extended the tech tree several levels before getting the "truly infinite" Q reactor, adding several stages before that which are called Q reactors, but are actually just supply components with massive storage abilities.

PvK

Sinapus · #7 April 16th, 2002, 12:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by PvK:

If there were a way to do this without using the solar-based ability, I would have put this in my Proportions mod. Sadly, I don't think there is a way to mod this currently without linking to the number of suns in the system, which to me was worse than the abstraction of just adding more supplies to represent generation.

For instance, for Quantum reactors, I extended the tech tree several levels before getting the "truly infinite" Q reactor, adding several stages before that which are called Q reactors, but are actually just supply components with massive storage abilities.

PvK

Well, you might be able to use drones as various types of missiles. (Or at least I tend to name mine after various naval missiles of this era.) Maybe make a few adjustments to the cargo capacity of the launchers to store more of them. (Or halve the size of them and use component enhancement to make half-size mounts or something. Or both.)