Shattered Soul for tartarians. Do tell !

[Twan]

For me it's pointless to make the most powerful SC unavailable via wish (after seraphs, another chassis will be the most popular, then another... it's endless). And it's a very bad idea to give to any nation an endgame summon others can never have. Balance between nations may be rock-paper-scissor in early game, but in endgame people should realise balance is only realised via the possibility for all nations to use tartarians, and about anything via wishes. Yes all nations tend to use the same things in endgame, but it's a good thing for balance as long all nations don't have a national powerful endgame SC summon.

Trying to reduce the number/availability of SCs in general is IMO a bad idea, as long the magic/initiative system stay the same. SCs (or any particular SC chassis) aren't actually overpowered compared to some endgame spells which *force* to use SCs to succeed to take provinces in endgame. Dominions without SCs would just end in big stalemates, with all battles won by defenders with mages.

For more diversity I'm rather for the addition of more non national non unique SC chassis in all paths (but uniques should also be made more powerful, or nobody will risk gems on them). Because it looks more doable than adding an endgame summon of the power of the seraph for each nation.

[kasnavada]

but in endgame people should realise balance is only realised via the possibility for all nations to use tartarians, and about anything via wishes.

That's exactly what makes the endgame bad and boring in my opinion. If you don't go for magic diversity, you don't win. Specializing in a type of magic should have a chance. But since research is capped, I suppose it's unavoidable.

I'm also in favor of more diversity for end-game. End-game needs more non-unique SC for all path and nation with different styles. But, end game also desperatly needs ways for armies to me more effective than what they currently are against SC. SC currently have counters, I don't say the opposite, but those counters are SC, thugs, mages. Most troops cannot compare to them and are merely dumb chaff against them !

One thing I'd love to see, is lvl 8 items that would auto-cast on a squad buffs powerful enough for a squad to rival the less powerful SC.

[MaxWilson]

I'd rather see such items be level 6. Too much fighting over uniques if it's level 8. I'd actually like a mod command #autocast that you add to an item to make it autocast some spell at the beginning of combat, once. That way you could mod in items that do Blessing on a squad, Weapons of Sharpness, Strength of Giants, etc., and we could work out which combos are overpowered and which are appropriately-priced. Sword of Aurgelmer autocasting Will of the Fates is fine, but I want to generalize it so some Level 6 items cast Legions of Steel.

-Max

[Twan]

I agree about artefacts (or expensive level 6 items for some spells). As items are the only way to use something before the defender cast, new items with defensive spells would solve the attack/defense balance problem.

The most powerful defensive buffs (army of lead, fog warriors) don't have to be available on items, but mid-power ones (ie : mass protection, antimagic, protection or resists spells with limited AE like marble warriors, legions of steel, and ward spells) should, and would be sufficient to avoid sure victories.

[Endoperez]

I slightly disagree with Edi. IMO, Wish should be strong enough to call nation-spesific summons. My problem is with the fact that an angel is the number-one choice for a wished-for SC, while he seems to be more concerned about the fact that a nation-spesific creature is willing to serve any nation.

I wouldn't even mind it that much if angels were still summonable, but handled differently. As I said before, I'd like to see a random, powerful angel summoned whenever a spesific angel is wished for, because they aren't directly under the control of the Wish-caster; this would make angels different while still making them a safe bet for something powerful.



Area buffs from items are an interesting idea, but there are some problems. First, it'd be very easy to make SCs immune to everyhing by having him start at 50% resist and then give him a few squires with resistance items. Second, all items are Construction, and getting Mass Protection, Antimagic and wards from the same school could be too powerful.

[kasnavada]

Area buffs from items are an interesting idea, but there are some problems. First, it'd be very easy to make SCs immune to everyhing by having him start at 50% resist and then give him a few squires with resistance items. Second, all items are Construction, and getting Mass Protection, Antimagic and wards from the same school could be too powerful.

These can be circumvented. Create just a single item called "spell holder". Then, as a special action, a mage can put the spell in the "spell holder" (so he needs to have the spell to cast it in the spell holder).

Another idea would be to unlock items with another criteria (a spell school). I always found quite dumb that you could make a robe of invulnerability without having the invulnerability spell in the first place.

Making them work only on a squad (EDIT because I meant : not the commander) of 25, 40, 100 person max can also solve the problem (instead of the entire field), as well as limiting the number of spells that are auto-casted at the start of a battle.

I agree though, making everything available from a single school is too powerful.

A bit more on topic, I'd love to have spells that could make a squad of elite troops strong enough to beat "minor" SC reliably. Especially since the "nerf-stick" to tartarian is nearly negligible.

[Endoperez]

kasnavada said:

These can be circumvented. Create just a single item called "spell holder". Then, as a special action, a mage can put the spell in the "spell holder".

Another idea would be to unlock items with another criteria (a spell school). I always found quite dumb that you could make a robe of invulnerability without having the invulnerability spell in the first place.

"Spell Holders" - too complex. Way, way too complex. There's nothing like them in the game.

As for the second one, there was a bug that caused similar results with items and ritual spells. Gate Stone only worked if you had researched Astral Travel, etc. It was a bug, and a very annoying one at that because it made several items utterly useless.
Just imagine what Construction would be like if it didn't actually give you anything but Sword of Sharpness? No Luck, no regen, no Air Shield, no Fire Shield, no Barkskin, no Quickness...

[Edi]

Twan said:
For me it's pointless to make the most powerful SC unavailable via wish (after seraphs, another chassis will be the most popular, then another... it's endless).

Slippery slope fallacy. Yes, if Seraph is unavailable to any but the ones whose national spell it is, some other chassis will be the optimal one. The whole goddamn point of national summons is that they are supposed to be restricted to specific nations, which should override popularity as SC chassis for everyone. In my opinion anyway. It does not mean that all other SC possibilities should also be eliminated from the wishlist (not even possible to do that).

Twan said:
And it's a very bad idea to give to any nation an endgame summon others can never have.

Why? If you have 20 options that are generally usable and there's a top 5, eliminating one of the top 5 from those whose national summon it doesn't happen to be still leaves them with all of the others and if they can't deal with it, they deserve to get their arse spanked in an MP game.

Twan said:
Balance between nations may be rock-paper-scissor in early game, but in endgame people should realise balance is only realised via the possibility for all nations to use tartarians, and about anything via wishes. Yes all nations tend to use the same things in endgame, but it's a good thing for balance as long all nations don't have a national powerful endgame SC summon.

So unless everyone has precisely the same options, it's unbalanced? That's what your argument boils down to and I think we smacked that down in a couple of other threads quite handily.

Twan said:
Trying to reduce the number/availability of SCs in general is IMO a bad idea, as long the magic/initiative system stay the same. SCs (or any particular SC chassis) aren't actually overpowered compared to some endgame spells which *force* to use SCs to succeed to take provinces in endgame. Dominions without SCs would just end in big stalemates, with all battles won by defenders with mages.

That's a nice strawman argument there. Nobody is talking about restricting SCs in general. We are talking about restricting ONE specific SC chassis that also happens to be a nation specific summon. Though I would not at all mind restricting the Mandaha in addition to the Seraph and the new powerful Hinnom summons.

Twan said:
For more diversity I'm rather for the addition of more non national non unique SC chassis in all paths (but uniques should also be made more powerful, or nobody will risk gems on them). Because it looks more doable than adding an endgame summon of the power of the seraph for each nation.

That's a good solution, adding more viable SC non-unique chassis options that are summonable.

[Zeldor]

I want patch! I will wish for that Hinnom summon in MP

I am afraid that we have to wait till dom4 for proper amount of national spells/summons and balanced end-game.

[Twan]

Edi said:
That's a nice strawman argument there. Nobody is talking about restricting SCs in general. We are talking about restricting ONE specific SC chassis that also happens to be a nation specific summon. Though I would not at all mind restricting the Mandaha in addition to the Seraph and the new powerful Hinnom summons.

Hum this thread started about nerfing tartarians then the subject became making seraph (or other national summons) non wishable. The common point looks like the desire to limit the number of good SCs available (or how viable they are in the tartarians case).

A+B result is : the reliable (non insane) non-uniques endgame SCs will cost 120 gems instead of 30 (GoR counted), and would be pretender chassis with about level 3 in one path, instead of tartarians who often have 7 levels or seraphs with 4/4/4.

IMO the question of mages using endgame spells Vs SC balance is very relevant here.

So unless everyone has precisely the same options, it's unbalanced? That's what your argument boils down to and I think we smacked that down in a couple of other threads quite handily.

"Precisely" no. But "globally" in endgame yes.

In early to midgame the rock-paper-scissor balance is good, because the clever player chose his foes, and use diplomacy to avoid wars his nation has too small chances to win.

In endgame it's different business, any nation must have the tools to defeat any other nation remaining. There would be no interest to continue to play with a rock-paper national balance at this stage. The two last nations, at equal power and player skill should have 50% to win, so only player skill makes a difference.

Graphics may be different, with non-wishable national summons for all nations instead of generic SCs if you want, but most abilities, counters, interesting path combos on SCs chassis, etc... have to be available for anyone (once magic diversification is achieved) and for about the same cost.