Mod: Blast from the Past, Return of the Underkings

[PvK]

Saulot commented earlier about the Battleragers being size 3 in order to keep them from using the 6/square dwarf formation. They are pretty funny in practice because they get Quickness somehow and zoom around doing two attacks, and they have berzerk +10 (rather extreme).

[Aezeal]

lol + 10 protection.. that would be nice especially since I guess they already have some armour.. why not sacred with earthbless 9 too

Thematically I can imagine the battle ragers needing a lot of room for all kinds of battle raging maneuvres

[trentzero]

Yes, they don't need no stinkin' armor either! Woad is enough for them (prot 6). That and booze, lotsa booze... drunken dwarf-fu maybe? I can imagine them whistling "Happy Woodcutter" as they charge into the enemy ranks, spittle and axe a flying...

[Aezeal]

battle ragers use the most heavy of heavy armour, with points everywhere, read the Salvatore stories about them battlehammer battleragers

They should get a damageshield (1)

[Saulot]

"- Loremaster has new magic path cost 40 . Is it intentional ? Considering is other stats, I would rather take a great enchantress. It is thematic for dwarves not to have too diverse magic, but I thing you could give him another path. Or two, and raise path cost to 50-60."

Hm, well I suppose he could have death, but I'd very much prefer if the dwarves weren't running around with skeletons in tow, or a death bless.

If he had a lower pathcost, it may be overpowered.

Suggestions are quite welcome, I'm not quite satisfied with the Loremaster, as my original idea for him was unable to be worked out in game, and tuning him down to a plain sage pretender is kind of boring.

"- At the beginning of line 4 of Mimir's backgroung "the them" seems a bit too much. "

Fixed.

"Woo hoo! Thanks Saulot! Wow, there is a lot of work here!"

Thanks.

"The thrown hammers from Dwarven Throwing Axe are visually enormous (like, two meters long) for some reason. Their range should probably be Strength rather than straight 12."

That's the size of the sprite animation. Nothing I can do about that. As for range being strength, I'd prefer that myself but that's not moddable.

"Dwarves should probably use a better Axe than the standard Axe - there's no reason to prefer the Axe dwarf to the hammer dwarf, and the only cost difference is 1 resource point, for +1 attack. "

Hm, yes I suppose they are too similar, so I have several options here. I can give a dwarven axe a +1 to hit, (which makes it identical to a hammer, so that wouldn't work), I can give a dwarven axe a +1 to damage, which would probably make it still inferior to the hammer 4 times out 5, and not really be worth it, since then I'd have to round out dwarven hatchets and battleaxes as well, and that seems like much ado about nothing.

The other alternative, is to get rid of the hammer dwarf warrior altogether, which I have considered earlier, but left it in there for the same reason they're there in Ulm, for flavor.

Suggestions welcome.

As for Battleragers, I think trentzero has the right idea.

I gave this unit a LOT of thought and consideration. There were several ways I could have went about it, as they needed to be special and different.

I thought about making them bigger and giving them trample (not terribly original). I thought about giving them a ton of armor, however, there are plenty of walking tin-cans available, and another one would hardly have been special. Furthermore, with dominions encumbrance rules, they would be slow as a plumber going for his tools. I don't think I need to mention balance as yet another reason.

Then I examined the onebattlespells that could somewhat make them rage. Obviously, rage was the first choice, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work, and even if it did, nobody would want to buy them. Self quickness seems to do the trick. They run around like crazy and chop things up. The strong berserk ability takes care of their boosted defence soon enough, to around 0, but gives them the ability to survive blows that would lay another being low. Despite their unusually good abilities, the lack of a body slot should keep them out of the abusive thug range.

All in all, I think it's a fine approximation of Battleragers and that they're a highlight of the mod. I'm quite pleased with them.

[PvK]

For the axes and hammers, yeah it's tricky within the existing values. My ideal solution would actually be to make and apply a weapon mod, because the issue is a pet peeve of mine. (I think the two-handed weapons and good one-handed battleaxes are undervalued, and daggers overrated. I'd call the existing Axe a Woodaxe for foresters and other non-pros, and make a one-handed battle Axe cost more resources but have no negatives to skill, like the difference between a Maul and a Battleaxe.)

But given the existing weapons, I think I would suggest adding a non-magic Dwarven Axe weapon with say damage 7 or 8, attack 0, defense -1 or 0, length 1, and giving it a noticeably higher resource cost than the Hammer. I'd also have a Dwarven Battleaxe with at least damage 10, just because.

Also I think your Helmsfire Greataxe should be length 3.

Code:

---

Existing stats:

Fist       -2 -1 -1  0

Dagger      2  1  0  0

Hatchet     5  0  0  1

Axe         7 -1 -1  1

Hammer      7  0 -1  1

Shortsword  5  0  1  1

Broadsword  6  0  1  2

Maul        9  0 -1  3

Battleaxe   9  0  0  3



Your added stats:

Dwarven Pickaxe      3  0 -1  1  (AP)

Dwarven Hammer       8  0 -1  1  (magic)

Dwarven Maul        11  0 -1  3  (magic)

Runed Greataxe      10  1  0  3  (magic + undead)

Helmsfire Greataxe  10  2  0  2  (magic + fire)

---

[Saulot]

I too would probably change some weapons, starting with the ones which were more traditionally for dealing with heavy armor; warhammers, mauls, picks, lucerne hammers, etc. by lowering their damage and making them AP. I'd also probably change some of the spear users to have more variety, with military forks, warscythes, and pikes.

But imposing that inside of a nation mod hardly seems fair, and there's already a balance mod that's quite well developed.

Well, there's nothing wrong with the rationale behind making a dwarf-based axe, it's just that improving it wouldn't just change the balance of one of the dwarf units, but several of them. Due to how size 1 resources go, even if I gave it 3 or 4 more resources, it would still be too similar to a hammer. Also, I'm not sure I could explain away why it would be have such a higher resource cost. Lastly, there's still the problem of there being 3 axes (hatchet, axe, battleaxe). Changing one, suggests the other two should be altered as well.

I didn't add a 'Dwarven Hammer'. That's the base weapon for the magic item of the same name.

As for the two greataxes, that was intentional as I wanted to make them a bit different, to have less similarities between the paladins. The second greataxe is somewhat shorter, double headed (thus the rounded edge means that the most likely point of impact is at the middle of the axehead, and not the top) thus better balanced, and possessing the ability for an equally brutal backswing (this all translates into +1 to hit, -1 to length in Dom terms). However, tweaking the stats of the greataxes is certainly mutable and not set in stone. Hopefully the two paladins are balanced, yet different enough.

[PvK]

Yes, I'm with you on the armor-piercing weapons. I'll have to check out the balance mod.

Seems to me axes are the signature stereotypical dwarven weapon, and these dwarves are apparently expert weaponsmiths, and yet their non-magical axe weapons are inferior to plain hammers or swords. As a player, I'd probably rather recruit hatchet versions at 5 0 0 1 than axe versions at 7 -1 -1 1 (and I essentially never recruit the axe dwarves because of the hammer dwarves). Really it's just a flavor/thematic thing.

...

Especially since they are ultra-strong already simply due to their stacking double the number of figures per square in melee combat.

[HoneyBadger]

Somebody really ought to do a study on weapon type/form efficiency as compared to the size/strength of the person weilding the weapon. It would make for an interesting thesis.

I don't know why Tolkien, or anyone else, felt the need to put axes in the hands of dwarfs, except for their Norse origins. Here's an interesting fact, however: Dwarfs weren't short, in Norse myth. They were, as far as can be told in modern times, as tall as humans. They only acquired their lesser status *after* the Viking age-probably influenced by the general shift of "faerie creatures" from large to small.

Axes, in combat, work by concentrating force-more than a sword-on a smaller area, but allowing the spread of force-more than a spear-to affect a greater area. The axe itself also acts somewhat like a lever, trading greater surface area for greater precision and striking power, which is why an axe requires more room to swing than a similarly sized sword, and much more than a spear does to thrust.

What does this mean? It means that, in the hands of a much smaller person, that lives in close quarters and thrives in heavy armour, you're putting a much larger, heavier weapon, that requires more room to swing, and that actually does less damage-especially to armour and compact targets-and has much less functionality and availability than a pick in similar circumstances.

Axes for dwarfs is great for Dominions, because it's pure myth. If you want something based a bit on reality and common sense, arm them with picks, spears, shortswords, macheti-type weapons, and crossbows.

[Aezeal]

ok that was to much for me.. I can sort of see the 2nd alinea, but I can't see how that translates into the 3th (and thus 4th)

WHy would a very strong small person not wield an axe? What has the heavy armour to do with it?
Why is a larger heavier weapon a problem for a strong person?
Why does it do less damage to armour compared to a sword when you say it concentrates the force more? (ow wait that was compared to a pick right, I can see that)
I always consider dwarven quarters about the size that a dwarf can wield and axe and defend a whole corridor with swings of one axe.. how does that fit into your equation.

on your final alinea.. I can see why picks would be better than axes.. not why spears, shortswords and macheti-type weapons are better, since if you have the power to wield a heavy weapon.. IMHO it will hit harder.. which is a good thing when breaking armour right?

Plz enlighten me (really, no sarcasm here, I'd like to know it all)