SE4 Strategy - An Art or a Science?

[Askan Nightbringer]

OK...I'm going to put my combat simulator where my mouth is.

Although I do concede that mods make the ideal model harder to obtain, and some modders attention to this area (I'm thinking the brilliant proportions mod) show that others are aware of the "problem".

The combat engine is heavily weighted towards offensive/defensive bonuses

Now any conquest strategy, whether long term or short term has to take advantage of this simple fact.

To demonstrate the weight try this.
Design a light cruisers with 6 large mount DUC 1's. Now design another one exactly the same with combat sensors 1 and ECM 1. Simulate a combat between these 2 designs, noting the obvious that the ship with the sensors wins most of the time.
Increase the combat to 10 ships a side, noting now the the ships with the sensors with all the time with max losses of 3.

That is the advantage a berserker culture with 15% aggresiveness and 10% defensiveness has against a race with no bonuses in that department.

Not overwhelming but a start.
Now assume we're playing some 2k empire setup. With this its quite reasonable to build a race that is berserker with a 20% aggresiveness and a 20% defensiveness. To facilitate this we may take penalties in cunning (even with non-existant cunning its still quite easy to block intel coz defence is much easier than attack), strength and repair.

The next important bit is your research strategy. Most big time warring starts after turn 30 or so. Your simply aiming to get your to hit and defense bonus as high as possible by that time.
To do this go for
1. Sensors and ECM (obvious)
2. Steath and scattering armour (level 3 in both gives you 30% defence).
3. Training facilities. A fully trained ship in a fully trained fleet is +40 attack and +40 defence. Now this is massive. This is nothing but devastating to the unprepared player.

The other key points are mines and point defence. Mines ensure a big war won't break out too soon (and always build explosive warheads II so scattering armour won't bust your field).
Point defence to negate any missile strategy (if the fact that all missiles seem to target the lead ship didn't already).

Don't worry to much about the fighter..the fact they don't get racial (i believe) or experience bonuses and to get sensors or ecm you have to research levels in fighter means even they'll have hard times hitting your ships.

Shake and bake and prepare to serve nothing but cold fury. Soon you too will be getting those 100 ships dead to loss of your one results that we all know and love.

Oh...this strategy does have a counter. When the enemy is adopting the same one

Cheers,
Askan

[geoschmo]

Ok, my only comment to this is that you pretty much are saying the way to win this game every time is to hit the other guy more than he hits you.

"Well, Duh!"

This is totally realistic and perfectly in line with what we have witnessed in modern warfare. Now a case could be made that it SE4 combat to hit pluses and minus are a bit to strong, but since everybody knows that going in, what's the problem?

Since everybody knows that part of it, it's their responsibility to plan accordingly. With equal levels of sensor tech and experience (science) then victory will go to the player than can accomplish putting more of his ships where the other guys aren't (art). While there may be only one real way to do the first, there are certainly a myriad of ways to accomplish the second.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Geo

[Gryphin]

It comes down to:
Science:
Concentration of Effort
Economy of Force
Mobility
Techonolog
Art:
Designing the Ships
Reading your opponent
Taking / Making Calculated Risks
Correctly Employing the Sciences, (that is the hard part).
There are several examples in recent history of technology and training that are reflectect in the numbers you point out.
I once saw a book on "numbers and warfare". I don't remember the title. I'll try to find it and post it here. Anybody know of it?

[Jmenschenfresser]

You listed a quite a lot askan. Especially given the fact that you stated real combat starts by turn 30.

I agree that the SE4 model lends itself to one ideal ship type which dominates over the others, but if combat starts around turn 30, no one can possibly research everything you mentioned before one's empire comes under attack.

Harken back to our game where I got my *** handed to me because I failed to develop and implement two things in time...mines and some kind of sensor to pick up ships with stealth armor. You were able to slip by and glass my home worlds.

In all actuality, when you did attack, I had already developed mines, and was in the process of building mine layers and mines. As far as the sensors go, when I got hit, they were the next thing in queue. Little too late though.

However, at the same time, I had spent much more time researching offensive tech, ship construction, ecm, combat sensors, weapons, etc. I am pretty sure I had slightly better fleets and a larger economic base.

I guess my whole point is...if combat starts by turn 30 on average, it's not the fact that there is an ideal game plan that matters, it's what you research and implement first which can win or lose the game.

So the answer is....

Intuition...

If you get out of the first 100 turns in a strong position, then it becomes a science.

[Master Belisarius]

I think that's 90% science and 10% art.

But think that some people learn fast (usually playing against a more experienced player), and other people, never will learn how to play although could play a lot of SE4 games...

In SE3 times, I have taught (yes, literary I have taught!), about my tactics and strategies near of 12 players. I could be a bad professor (admit), but only 2 or 3 became really good players.

Then, although I think that play SE4 is a science, also I believe that not everybody learn at the same speed. In my view, it makes the difference.

[PirateRob]

One thing you could try is modding the 'settings.txt' file and reduce the maximum aggressive and defensive trait settings. you could also put the threshold level real low so that the cost goes up drasticaly if you go for a high bonus in those areas. I think this will reduce the importance of those combat bonuses based on race. you will then see some more variety in race design perhaps?

Rob

[witherton]

Wow, I'm actually posting on this forum.

I'm a non-technical player. I've never tried tactical combat, used the simulator, replayed combat or other techy things. I don't play solo games against the AI. Yet I manage to win games on PBW. So I bring a slightly different perspective than Askan. I don't know how to separate art from science but here are some thoughts on successful play.

First, I am absolutely sure Askan knows what he is talking about. I played with him before and you don't want him as an enemy. But I think there are some other considerations.

1. Cash flow. Having fleets depends on cash flow. To get it you need to expand fast and make efficient use of what you have. There are known techniques for rapid expansion.

2. Efficiency. Changes to maintenance ability dramatically alter the size fleet you can maintain for a given cash flow. Empire points put into maintenance pay off. Points put into mineral production are also really worthwhile.

3. Diplomacy. Alliances and manipulation of enemies can make a real difference. Get on the same side with Askan Get your enemies fighting each other. Here is an example from a recent game: I was #1 empire and #2 and #3 were very close in score. I thought #2 and #3 were going to gang up on me. So I traded planets for ships with #3 and used those ships as part of a fleet attacking #2. #2 thought #3 was in alliance with me and preemptively attacked #3. They fought a long battle while I expanded and cemented my position. I won.

4. Trade. Trade stuff. Don't worry too much about helping another empire as long as you help yourself.

5. Tactics. Figure out a plan to conquer the galaxy--the plan will constantly change but have a plan. Fight wars that you can win. Attack with overwhelming strength. Negotiate and stall when you are weak or out of position. Defend your gains. Guard the choke points. All the usual plus watch out for SEIV stuff like cloaking and stellar manipulation (more on this later).

6. Talismans. (dictionary says that is the plural). I recently found religion. It isn't necessary but never missing from maximum range is really nice. Of course, you probably reduce aggressiveness to pay for religion (isn't that fitting?) so you are vulnerable while researching. Be really nice for awhile.

7. Construction. So you've expanded to 100 planets, got bazillions in cash flow, a great maintenance ability and here comes Askan with his fleet. Quick you need a fleet of your own. But your construction ability is terrible and you haven't put space yards on every planet nor built construction bases and gosh darn it you're dead before you can build that super fleet. Balance in all things.

8. Game Specifications. This time you have your 100 planets, your maintenance, your space yards, your construction and are all ready to produce that devastating 1000 ship fleet. And just when you go to launch number 201, you realize there is a 200 ship limit in this game. And your much smaller neighbor with his 200 optimized religio-organic ships wipes you out. Darn. Things like ship and unit limits, is surrender allowed, will there be AI, size and type of galaxy etc. influence tactics.

9. Stellar manipulation. You've got that back door guarded and are moving your fleet to the front when your opponent opens wormholes in your best systems and blows their stars up. Ooops. Worm hole opening and closing can play havoc with plans and tactics. So get the tech first or win the war before your opponent can get it.

I guess what I am saying is that there is a lot of complexity in the game and, at least for a non-techy fellow like me, no set formula for success.