SE4 Strategy - An Art or a Science?

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
In SE3 times, I have taught (yes, literary I have taught!), about my tactics and strategies near of 12 players. I could be a bad professor (admit), but only 2 or 3 became really good players.

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But Master B, is this not evidence that sucess is more of an art than a science? Of course perhaps it is one more difference between SEIII and SEIV. (I am sure I could find many people that would agree with that statement no?)

I still believe that sucess is much more art than most people relize. A bad player can become adequate through science or art. But it takes both to become truely great.

I have played Askan and Master B, and have beat neither. I understand the science of why I lose. I can perform the calculations, and follow the steps. But I still lose, badly. But I do not consider myself in their league when it comes to the art of war.

I think the true measure of the talent of the artist may be that he is unaware of how talented he is.

Geoschmo

[ 24 April 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[rdouglass]

In SE or in real life, technolgy almost always wins. Period.

(notice I said almost.....)

[Gryphin]

The name of the book I mentioned was:
"Numbers, Predictions and War"
It gets a lot of hits at Google.com

rdouglass,
"In SE or in real life, technolgy almost always wins. Period."
Your key word is, "Almost". For Example the highly trained and technology superior German Army of WWII vs the untrained masses of equipment of the Russian army. It was however a Phyric Vitory if you look at the kill ratio.

In the case of the Germans, I believe, they failed in the "Art of War".

"There is an exception to every rule. Including that one"

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by rdouglass:
In SE or in real life, technolgy almost always wins. Period.

(notice I said almost.....)

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No disagreement here. I am not trying to say that you can somehow develop a magical fairy dance that will allow your low tech escorts to overcome their high-tech bettleships. But I am simply saying that this is not a weakness of the game.

The fact that you have maximize your ability to hit your opponents and minimize your opponents ability to hit you is completely normal and expected for a combat simulation game, because it's true of real life combat. Where I disagree is with the belief that this somehow controls your choices in the game setup and forces everybody into some vanilla flavored empire. There is plenty of variety in how you get there. The trip is the thing, not the destination.

Since experinece, ecm, and combat sensors are the heaviest inluence on these factors, and they are all achieveble by any player given time, they aren't race specific.

The racial characteristics have an influence, but proporionally less of one. So that given equal amounts of tech controlled to hit bonuses, you can overcome a racial controlled to hit deficit though superior numbers, or in some cases superior tactics.

The science is the way to not lose. But to win, you must have the art.

Geoschmo

[PvK]

Hmm, while I definitely know what you mean about maximizing combat bonuses being extremely important, I don't think this is the most important thing. It can dominate tactical direct-fire combat, but that's not nearly the only effective strategy. It does tend to dominate the late-game, when techs are running low. And yes, this is something I tried to counter in all sorts of ways in Proportions mod, from tuning down all to-hit mods, to adding many new ones and presenting a lot of different ship design and research options that weren't as useful in the standard game.

One issue is that in the late game, unless you're playing a mod or have high research costs, everyone has the opportunity to get the best parts of the whole tech tree.

However, even with the highest techs, I still don't think there is really one best design. Talismans are really powerful, though. But once you see your opponents' designs, you can probably find a design that can out-perform that design in some way, that isn't exactly the same as it. Go cheap, go expensive, go larger, go smaller, go faster, build more defense, go longer or shorter range, etc.

Also, in addition to designing the most efficient combat ships, there are a number of other tactics involving production, construction, maintenance, trade, intel, units, stellar manipulation, bases, deception, expansion, etc. Not all of them can be done at once, and are more or less useful in different situations.

Perhaps most important, though, is diplomacy. In a game with more than two human players, diplomacy can be the most important skill.

In the Universe Cup, I played two different types of empire. One geared for combat performance, and another weak in combat aptitude but impressive in other things (fast expansion). The two combat performance empires met similar opponents and had very hard fights, while the two combat deficient empires swept the map like Atilla and won before the enemies had a chance to get started.

Anyway, I think SE4 gameplay involves both art and science, as it were. Both aspects are important.

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

Thing is, even aggressiveness and defensiveness bonuses have their limits. Defensiveness won't help you if your opponent comes charging in with Organic Armor III ramming ships! Nor against a talisman. It's a big advantage, but not insurmountable. If you can put enough ships into space (by way of increased happyness and shipyard production) that advantage can be negated. Far side Warp-point defenses are also useful in that regard, since it's much easier to hit at close range.

Beserkers gives you power, but you pay for it. -5 production. -5 research. -5 intel. -5 trade. -2 shipyard (ow).

Research is important; always will be. And since PD is so extremely accurate and powerful in the umodded game, you need combat sensors. That's a given.

Ditto for agressiveness/defensiveness. Useful and probably a bit overpowered for the cost, but not essential.

Scenerio: down to two empires now, both reasonably high tech. You've dumped large amounts of points into Defensiveness, and mount stealth/scattering/ECM. Your opponent has the Religious Talisman. Poof, no advantage.

Scenerio: All the tech is equal, your ships have a to-hit advantage because you went for defensiveness. Your opponent counters by researching Wave Motion Guns (they get a + to hit). You could do the same, but you're already hitting him reliably anyway..

Phoenix-D

[TerranC]

Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy’s plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy’s forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy’s army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

-Chapter Three: Attack by Strategem
Sun Tzu, Art of War.

Art. Definitely.