Battlefield spell + retreating?

[Gandalf Parker]

I would also have to make a nit-picky point about such lists.

Lists exist on 4 levels. Each of us listing the things that we feel are "wrong" with the game. A maintained list of such items in the public forums. The list of such items being discussed in the Beta Tester forum (which is not allowed to be posted or discussed in public forums or chats due to the NDA agreement each beta-tester signs). And finally the only real official recognized buglist which would basically be the alpha group (the devs talking between themselves). Please beware of listing things as being officially known and recognized bugs unless there is a post here by Johan or Kristoffer saying so. It is rare that such verification floats down to us and declarations of that type can serve the reverse effect of getting it worked on.

Personally I try to word all of mine as requests until the devs decide to call them bugs.

[K]

I'll let this thread die semi-gracefully, but I'd like to summarize the main points on "battlefield spells + retreat" and MoD:

1.1 Is is a difficult/dangerous tactic to use? Yes.
1.2 Does it have counters that an experienced player can use and would likely be using as a matter of course? Yes.
1.3 Is it especially harmful to thug and SC armies and not others? Yes.
1.4 Does it anger players who fall for it? Yes. Like most effective tactics, it cheeses people off.

2.1 It it considered a bug by the devs? Yes, it does not work as they intended. The board moderator Gandalf Parker considers it a major bug, which is why it is red-listed in the Bug forum.
2.2 Is it important enough to the devs that they've addressed it in the last four patches? No.

3.1 Does the community as a whole believe it should be banned? Probably not, considering that only 7 of the 37 games running on the front page of the Multiplayer forum have any rules regarding it.
3.2 Is it an unwritten rule? There is no way to prove that, so that's an unfounded assumption. Since even the polls that have been done are self-selecting, getting valid data is extremely difficult. Final answer: the data says probably no because there is no supporting data other than conflicting anecdotal evidence.

4.1 Does it fundamentally alter game balance to keep it in? No, though it does take away some of the power of thug and SC armies and forces players to have a more balanced end-game strategy.

5.1 Is K a Devil's Advocate and/or argumentative jerk? Maybe. The jury is still out on both counts.
5.2 Is K a cheater who I can't trust to play with? No. I play by any rules that have been agreed upon at the start of the game. I do get very cheesed when someone who is in the middle of a war with me suddenly says "oh, we have these unwritten rules against the thing you're doing."

[DonCorazon]

Did you include AndeanZorro in your numerical analysis?

Omnirizon said:
Cheats: no using the cheap battlefield spell combos (can't recall them off the top of my head, but I will spell them out if necessary; most people should know what they are and know better any way.)

[K]

DonCorazon said:
Did you include AndeanZorro in your numerical analysis?

Yes.

[DonCorazon]

So you knew he was talking about MoD / retreating?

[Gandalf Parker]

A few points.

I dont maintain the sticky bug list on the forum. I think you mean Edi. I maintain the server list, the server commands wishlist, the map commands wishlist.

Importance isnt the best word when using the last 4 patches as evidence. What has been in the latest patches has been decided more by ease than importance.

I totally agree with you about hating unspoken rules. And I would be against any general decision that such unwritten rules carry much weight. It tends to require reading many different threads on a continual basis. I myself would be fairly likely to fail such unspoken rules.

[Gandalf Parker]

If anyone does wish to compile a list of unspoken rules then we can put them somewhere they can be linked to in the first post of game-starting threads.

[K]

DonCorazon said:
So you knew he was talking about MoD / retreating?

Yup. It was counted as part of the 7 out of 37.

[DonCorazon]

So I guess the point I am trying to make is that most people who have played the game know that MoD is one of the cheap battlefield combos Omni outlawed in Andean, as evidenced by the fact K read it and included MoD / retreating in that category when he compiled his stats.

IMHO MoD is part of the community knowledge, just as Omni referenced in his guidelines for Andean. But I think it makes sense to point it out at the start of a game cuz you never know who knows what and an MP game is a big time investment.

Also, I don't think people get cheezed at every effective tactic. On the contrary, i am always delighted to get schooled by effective tactics. I may lose a battle but it adds an arrow to my quiver for future games.

But if I were in a game where MoD-retreat was allowed, I would design my entire strategy to focus on it, including having a hard to kill pretender designed to teleport around and use that move. I don't think it would be fun and I guess the other guy would eventually use the same strategy.

Anyway, I am not going to belabor the point but I still look forward to someone posting a turn where they show how they stopped an MoD-retreat.

[Edi]

K said:
2.1 It it considered a bug by the devs? Yes, it does not work as they intended. The board moderator Gandalf Parker considers it a major bug, which is why it is red-listed in the Bug forum.
2.2 Is it important enough to the devs that they've addressed it in the last four patches? No.

I'll address these two points since they fall directly under stuff I deal with:

2.1 Yes, it is considered a bug. This has been confirmed by both KO and JK. The severity rating of the bug is my estimation of it as the modertaor in charge of managing bug reporting and the shortlist. Not Gandalf's. That obviously does not preclude Gandalf agreeing with me.

2.2 That's a false dilemma fallacy and a red herring. The devs consider it an important bug, but they have not fixed it yet for reasons known only to them. Perhaps it is a difficult bug to fix or perhaps there are other considerations. It is presumptuous of anyone on the forums to make unequivocal statements like that when they do not have access to all the relevant information. Even I do not (though I have access to more than is on the public forum) and I talk to the devs fairly regularly about stuff like this for obvious reasons.