Battlefield spell + retreating?

[Tifone]

MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE? A NEW, IMPORTANT QUESTION.

As someone talked about Twan's mod (link please?), which makes the phantasms from MoD appear for just 9 turns at superior rate, I want to ask:

Is in this way a legit tactic to MoD+BAttlefield spell+retreat?

In My Absolutely Humble Opinion, Yes.

PLEASE READ EVERYTHING.

In the elegant solution Twan suggested, MoD loses its annoying and (as "almost" everybody agreed) unfair characteristic to be an automatic win in many situations for the endless phantasms coming.

In this way, using the tactic which was previously an exploit, you now have a IMHO legit tactic to damage an army or an SC, which is maybe MORE effective than a Fires from Afar or a Murdering Winter or a Vengeance of the Dead, but even MORE risky and requires a BETTER mage to be done (as he needs to cast MoD, a battlefield spell, and possibly to teleport and to vortex of returning).

In fact, the countermeasures K and others suggested for the tactic are quite a must to be implemented in mid game - and it would be smart to implement them if you expect such a tactic.

So, this tactic becomes no more an *I win* one, but a risky tactic which takes you a turn of a good mage to be done, puts him at risk (for flyers, archers, earthquakes and the other counters previously suggested), but if it works it can seriously damage an army - like a Master Enslave or such.

Who agrees or doesn't? I'd like to hear something well argumented, please

[DonCorazon]

K said:
The "Battlefield spell + Retreat combo" and MoD are usuable by anyone, hard to set up, easily counterable by anyone, and only a small percentage of the community feels the need to make explicit rules banning it (for whatever reason). These are simple facts which support my position.

K, This is the part of your argument that cracks me up.

1. Usable by anyone applies to anything in the game. Irrelevant. I could argue anybody can hack the game, that doesn’t make it right.

2. MoD plus retreat is not hard to set up. Its not like this is some cool tactical move that only a brilliant strategist can pull off. In Alexandria, I have numerous guys who could do it at this point and I never even planned for it. eg Air Queen, Armor of Virtue, Celestial Masters with Air/Astral etc. If something does not require any advance planning and I just stumble into being able to do it, then it is easy.

3. It is not easily counterable. Post me a game file where you stop an Air Queen in Armor of Virtue or any tough pretender decked out in MR gear from pulling it off. Or a mage in some decent gear. If you cannot stop it then the game essentially becomes a race to get that unit/item b/c once you have it you become invincible. Major battles will all be fought the same way - MoD + retreat. Doesn't sound fun to me.

4. Only a small percentage of the community feels the need to make explicit rules against "BF spell + retreat" because it is such an obvious exploit to most of us. We have implicit rules against it (aka common sense). I don't recall anyone who has been on the boards for a while supporting the BF + retreat. I provided quotes from numerous longstanding vets that feel MoD plus retreat is unacceptable (my expert testimony). I'd like to hear your supporting experts. There are no explicit rules against sending your opponents nasty messages, that doesn’t mean it is acceptable or that we should have to draft explicit rules for everything when common sense should be sufficient.

So I would say the default assumption for any games that don't explicitly outlaw MoD + retreat is that it is not allowed unless someone explicitly allows it.

[chrispedersen]

Well, I've been on the boards awhile. I'd like to be able to play some games where MoD is allowed. Just as I'm ok with games where it isn't.

There are a lot of easy counters to MoD. Where MoD is devestating is where you have a huge army decimated by it.
That situation occurs when:

You fight a race which has proficiency in air, and neglected to plan how to address it.

You stuck all your eggs in one basket - and allowed it to become a one fight issue.

You didn't develop assassins to target the retreating mage.

You didn't raid his army, causing him to blow air gems on inconsequential fights.

You didn't develop a SC or army capable of dealing with the issue - so instead of merely retreating, you were eliminated by a heat from hell, etc.

You neglected to raid, or strategically ally to cause others to gang up on the (readily) MoD capable opponent.

This doesn't mean I don't find MoD to be strong, even unreasonably strong. It also doesn't mean that I don't think it goes beyond what the developers intended. It might even be a bug. But the real issue is that defeating MoD is subtle and difficult - and doesn't suit the style of many players.

If SC's - and large armies are readily trashed by MoD's - then winning strategies will necessarily less involve SC's and large armies.

The game becomes a game of air gem (and air mage) management. Defense in depth, instead of set piece battles. How to get (interrupt) air gems to the front.

In short, I don't think its ruins the game - it just changes the nature of it, in a way thats currently unpopular.

[triqui]

You didn't develop a SC or army capable of dealing with the issue - so instead of merely retreating, you were eliminated by a heat from hell, etc.

Unless i'm utterly wrong, that is not true. If i cloud trapeze onto your army/SC, cast the MoD and retreat, you will die regardless of anything. Your SC might as well be "inmune to heat, shock and frost". Or "inmune to death" and still would die. Becouse after 50 turns the attacker (that is, me) would retreat. As i dont have units, just the endless phantasmal warriors, fight would keep until turn 75, at which point everyone is destroyed.

Is not that the case?

[DonCorazon]

Good luck stopping my Air Queen with Armor of Virtue. Perhaps if you planned from day 1 just to kill me, then you'd be safe. Assassins just give me more experience, retreat paths are irrelevant with the ritual of returning, and at this stage in the game air gems are abundant. And I am playing LA TC - not known as an air nation. You better have casters with Rain of Stones ready to go everywhere b/c my armored telpeporting celestial masters with ritual of returning will be popping in wherever they see a troop buildup. And rain of stones will likely do a lot more damage to you than it will to my single kamikazee casters.

Anyway, it is personal preference and to each his own.

[Tifone]

not to be imposing, but would someone like to answer my question too?

[Endoperez]

Yes, the mod fixes everything.

[Donny]

Sorry, chris, I totally disagree with your points.

Mod-retreating is a godmode. It might take some time to type in something like 'whosyourdaddy', and the others might be successful disurbing the typing process, but once it takes effort no one and nothing can beat it. I'd say, allowing anything like godmode in MP might be fun, but tragic.

[thejeff]

triqui said:

Unless i'm utterly wrong, that is not true. If i cloud trapeze onto your army/SC, cast the MoD and retreat, you will die regardless of anything. Your SC might as well be "inmune to heat, shock and frost". Or "inmune to death" and still would die. Becouse after 50 turns the attacker (that is, me) would retreat. As i dont have units, just the endless phantasmal warriors, fight would keep until turn 75, at which point everyone is destroyed.

Is not that the case?

No, at turn 75 the defender would retreat. Only those who cannot/will not retreat are destroyed.

Mindless, berserk, unconscious, immobile, etc units will be destroyed, but most will just retreat.

[Tifone]

tnx Endoperenz ^_^