The Bogarus Problem

[Renojustin]

JimMorrison said:
It would lend a lot of weight to the "Bogarus needs an awake SC" camp, if they had actually won an MP game with that strat.

Kind of begs the question, Jim, how many games have you won with any strategy?

[JimMorrison]

Renojustin said:

Kind of begs the question, Jim, how many games have you won with any strategy?

Oh rhetoric is fun. As you can see by the HoF, no one has won an MP game with Bogarus, including me. How many times have you lost an MP game as Bogarus, with an awake pretender?



Part of my point was that if you are going to use the SC defensively only, then the issue is essentially moot anyways. You are trading a defensive bonus against small highly blessed armies - at the expense of making yourself more vulnerable to strong scales strats. What are you going to do if an O3/P3/G3 Marignon shows up with 200 crossbowmen? That sort of raw firepower can rout a PD in one volley, and kill a pretender with the next.

There is a simple rule in dominions - you can't be prepared for every contingency, at any given time. That being the case, it just seems kind of silly to base your entire strat around what you think is the biggest threat in the first 6-8 turns. I can't believe I'm the only one who thinks that if you're going to be eliminated, that's the best time for it. I'd much rather have a really strong mid-late game with a shaky start, than to have a misleadingly strong start, with a late game that is weaker than optimal. You can argue that it isn't, but simply taking Drain, losing 2 RP per researcher for the entire game - may not be hurting you, in the way that you look at it, but it is compromising what is considered to be one of the greatest strengths of Bogarus. If your build is able to keep that 1Magic instead, your research will be utterly insane, and you won't have to survive very long to start leveraging that power.

[Micah]

Good expansion gives you a good mid/end game. SCs give you a good expansion rate, especially with a nation like Bogarus. +100% provinces in the first year is worth more than +10% income. You can also cover all the important scales just fine with an SC build.

[Dedas]

I found out that playing Bogarus as Maverni (in Baalz guide) was very successful. That means using good scales to buy as many bodies as possible, boost them and thus survive early game. Later on you use your mages and excellent research advantage to win.

[Edi]

Bogarus can recruit absolute hordes of chaff and there is a quality all of its own to a great quantity of their archers, especially if they manage to snag some good indies soon.

Some of the problems with Bogarus are that they have no access to Earth, Water or Nature magic, so those should be covered by the pretender. An awake SC pretender is a pretty big risk, but could pay off. A straight research rush to Evo 2 or 3, mercenaries and hordes of chaff can get you somewhere, depending. Archers backed by the city guard and then the cav units can be fielded rather quickly in large numbers, which may allow you to take on other nations even if they are going for a bless strategy.

I've found Bogarus interesting to play in SP, but that does not translate well to MP, of course.

As far as the comments about how many MP games Bogarus has won, that's a red herring. The nation has been in for only two patches and not been in any number of MP games compared to most other winners and since unlike some other nations, does not EAT EVERYTHING, there is going to be a learning curve and wating period before see it win. Remember that in Dom-PPP Caelum was once considered the weakest nation. Then somebody figured out Quickness + Summon Lesser Air Elemental and the rest is history (and why lesser elementals cost gems to summon since Dom2).

[JimMorrison]

Edi said:
As far as the comments about how many MP games Bogarus has won, that's a red herring.

Well it would be of dubious value if it were used as an argument for Bogarus needing to be "fixed" or otherwise changed in order to be competitive.

However, it is not. I was just pointing out that people can debate different theories for the nation all they want, when someone says they need X in order to be competitive, then that begs the question, "how competitive are they, with X?", and so far the data shows that they are not conclusively more competitive with X, than with Y or Z. Which leads to a more open-minded discussion of the relative merits of these capital letters at the end of the alphabet.

[chrispedersen]

Edi said:
Bogarus can recruit absolute hordes of chaff and there is a quality all of its own to a great quantity of their archers, especially if they manage to snag some good indies soon.

Some of the problems with Bogarus are that they have no access to Earth, Water or Nature magic, so those should be covered by the pretender.

huh? Doesn't Bogus get access to alchemists - which as I recall are E1.

Besides, I'd rather look at it as they DO get access to Astral, Death, and Blood - which are the three essentials IMO>

[K]

Micah said:
Good expansion gives you a good mid/end game. SCs give you a good expansion rate, especially with a nation like Bogarus. +100% provinces in the first year is worth more than +10% income. You can also cover all the important scales just fine with an SC build.

True, but you have to to be able to keep those provinces. A single SC is fodder for any number of countermeasures while sustained growth backed by mixed forces is much harder to counter.

[Renojustin]

K said:

True, but you have to to be able to keep those provinces. A single SC is fodder for any number of countermeasures while sustained growth backed by mixed forces is much harder to counter.

So basically you're arguing that you shouldn't get the provinces if you can't hold them against a determined attack? That's fallacious.

1. You can continue to conquer enemy or indy provinces with your awake pretender, forcing them to retake them against cheap PD, jacking up the taxes in a raiding scenario.

2. You always have more total gold because of the fact that you got the provinces. Your sustained growth backed up by mixed forces is only better for the SC being there and may be your only viable option to achieve this considering your military.

3. An awake SC will lend disincentive to invasion, whereas if you do not have one, you are approaching 100% sure to get invaded by anyone that spots you. That's not a good mid-to-endgame strategy at all.

4. If you can't hold them with a pretender PLUS everything else, you can't hold them at all. So how exactly do you propose to spend those points any better?

I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense. So it's telling that you are counseling people to not take an awake pretender and offering no competitive strategy in return. I would too if I wanted to beat Bogarus.

[JimMorrison]

That's anecdotal - a single case with not even detailed analysis of the position. I mean I am sure at the time you didn't sit down and think through his build, and check out every one of his provinces - nor interview the populace of his provinces to discover if he had to face any particularly nasty indies, or had barbarians attack his castle, or god knows what constitutes "didn't make any mistakes", which is a hell of a claim.

I must say I find it amusing that it's scoffed at to use diplomacy as your early game strat anyways. Supposing it is one of your best options as Bogarus, so? It's really not THAT often that you start next to an instant rusher, that's for sure. Even when you do, to be on someone's capital so soon, often means that person mobilized against the first person that their scouts found - at most the second. So that person is not looking for Bogarus, they're just looking for a province with a castle in it, and there's a good chance they didn't even see your awake pretender if you have one - if you're expanding the other direction.

I really don't think it's fair, until there is statistical evidence (like a Bogarus win using *any* strat), for anyone to imply their strat is competitive, and another is not.