Paralysis is overpowered.

[sector24]

The telling phrase for me is, "any change might as well be a straight deletion of the spell." To me that is a pretty cut and dry statement. Now you can say I have created a straw man argument by saying "any nerf makes it worthless", but only if we accept your quantifier "and it can be easily countered anyway." That is an extremely subjective interpretation and is in fact at the heart of the argument. So basically in order for anyone to agree with your conclusion, they need to first agree with your assumption, which is your conclusion. Confusing I know!

I absolutely do not accept your quantifier, so therefore it's not a straw man argument to me. I think paralyze is one of the best low level combat spells in the game and by far the best astral spell at level 4. I think the only spell that is clearly superior is Raise Dead, but that's me.

Now I totally know what you mean, and I am having a bit of fun at your expense (and I appreciate that you can take it and dish it right back) but at the same time the strict interpretation of your argument doesn't necessarily reflect exactly what you mean. So of course you get a whole variety of silly counter arguments that range from term papers to kindergarten insults.

KO's explanation that it's supposed to remove a unit from combat for the duration of said combat is pretty telling and I don't think it's worth wasting developer time to make changes to the spell. But I do think it's a good spell at level 4 where there are very few useful combat spells. It seems to me that since it's astral, it's meant to be used in a communion and is therefore very conducive to penetration bonuses and less than listed fatigue, making it potentially better than its default spell stats indicate.

[K]

Originally Posted by sector24

The telling phrase for me is, "any change might as well be a straight deletion of the spell." To me that is a pretty cut and dry statement. Now you can say I have created a straw man argument by saying "any nerf makes it worthless", but only if we accept your quantifier "and it can be easily countered anyway." That is an extremely subjective interpretation and is in fact at the heart of the argument. So basically in order for anyone to agree with your conclusion, they need to first agree with your assumption, which is your conclusion. Confusing I know!

"The fact that it can be easily countered" is not a conclusion or an assumption. It's a fact.

High MR that is easily available on SCs and can lower the chance to less than %1 per casting (and if you expect Communions or Penetration items, you should add more MR). Also, high HP units will cause the casting AI to target them instead. Both counters are easily available to an SC builder.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by K

"The fact that it can be easily countered" is not a conclusion or an assumption. It's a fact.

That is a generalization based on late game strategic abilities. In the early game is where Paralyze shines the brightest, when the only SC you might have is your actual pretender, and the rest are merely "thugs". At this stage in the game, due to not having been able to diversify your magic yet, and likely having just reached Cons 4, you do not have the necessary tools to "easily counter" most anything.

Every time you think something is fine as is, you describe it as "easily countered". You can play theory-minions all you want, but the fact is you use the term "easily", when you really mean "potentially", and it's intentionally misleading.


Now as I said before, I don't believe in nerfs, but I do believe that reducing the effect of the spell to 30+ rather than 60+ would balance it better, and perhaps give it AOE 1 so it can hit multiple normal troops in the same square. However, KO already said it's basically WAD, so I don't see the point in having such bilious argument over it.


Oh, and hi Foodstamp.

[Adept]

[quote=K;634697]

Originally Posted by sector24

The telling phrase for me
"The fact that it can be easily countered" is not a conclusion or an assumption. It's a fact.

This is not a fact. MR 15 is high, MR 18 is pretender level. MR 23 is not enough to make commander stay non paralysed if the other side has several astral mages capable of casting paralyse.

There are other things needed on a fighting pretender or other SC than just MR boosting items. Led Shield, as a prime example is not an easy choise for a non-cavalry SC as the fatigue cost is just too high.

What is it with K and this spell anyway? Does he just love to argue, or is it his special precious baby? Reducing the duration doesn't change things that much, but it would make it a better and more balanced spell... much less frustrating too.

[konming]

[quote=Adept;635830]

Originally Posted by K

This is not a fact. MR 15 is high, MR 18 is pretender level. MR 23 is not enough to make commander stay non paralysed if the other side has several astral mages capable of casting paralyse.

There are other things needed on a fighting pretender or other SC than just MR boosting items. Led Shield, as a prime example is not an easy choise for a non-cavalry SC as the fatigue cost is just too high.

What is it with K and this spell anyway? Does he just love to argue, or is it his special precious baby? Reducing the duration doesn't change things that much, but it would make it a better and more balanced spell... much less frustrating too.

This is getting amusing. How many SCs you see have a high base MR of 15? I cannot think of one, maybe you can remind me?

SCs need to get their MR up because, hey, there is a small spell called soul slay in case you forgot. And did I say mind hunt? How about enslavement? Charm? Bone melter? Blindness? You got to be crazy to send SCs out without decent MR gears unless it is first year pretender SC.

[konming]

[quote=Adept;635830]

Originally Posted by K

This is not a fact. MR 15 is high, MR 18 is pretender level. MR 23 is not enough to make commander stay non paralysed if the other side has several astral mages capable of casting paralyse.

There are other things needed on a fighting pretender or other SC than just MR boosting items. Led Shield, as a prime example is not an easy choise for a non-cavalry SC as the fatigue cost is just too high.

What is it with K and this spell anyway? Does he just love to argue, or is it his special precious baby? Reducing the duration doesn't change things that much, but it would make it a better and more balanced spell... much less frustrating too.

And if the other party has several astral mages, you should not expect your MR 23 SC to stay alive. Several astral mage and a decent army or strong PD is enough of an investment to defeat a (wrongly geared) SC. You should come and see MP more often.

[Adept]

[quote=konming;635836][quote=Adept;635830]

Originally Posted by K

And if the other party has several astral mages, you should not expect your MR 23 SC to stay alive. Several astral mage and a decent army or strong PD is enough of an investment to defeat a (wrongly geared) SC. You should come and see MP more often.

MP? If you are talkign about multiplay, as in playign against other humans, I've been doing that since early days of the original dominions.

[konming]

If it counters early game pretender SCs, then all the better. We actually need more counters like that.

[Kristoffer O]

Decaying targets decay for a while after battle as well.

[Amhazair]

My problem with paralysis isn't anything about the spell itself (I think it's fine, though I wouldn't object strongly agains a slight duration reduction.) What does bother me is that the AI, once scripting runs out insist on spamming it over and over in preference over soul slay, even with high level astral mages.

While I could possibly understand S3 caster to default to paralyze for fatigue reasons, in my opinion anything S4 or higher should always go for soul slay, to prevent the all too common 50-turn-desperate-but-doomed-attempts-to-kill-the-opposing-SC-followed-by-the-inevitable-turn-limit-rout. This should go double for any mages in a communion, who shouldn't care too much about fatigue. (As opposed to the player setting up the communion, who should defintely worry about setting it up so the masters don't have to worry. )