No more MP for Hinnom?

[Omnirizon]

my understanding of what the dev team looks for in balance is simply that a single nation does not force most other nations into a particular course of action simply to counter that nation.

thus, why LA R'yleh and Ermor are considered unbalanced by most, because they must be dealt with very deliberately and specifically, forcing other players to take _special_ action against them, thus reducing the possibilities from the player's perspectives in the game.

I think Hinnom falls into this category too. I see some players saying "they're not unbalanced, all you have to do is have EVERYBODY gang up on them, so therefore they are automatically rebalanced." That is NOT balance. I will NOT join an MP game where the first twenty to thirty turns of my game are dictated to me by the simple presence of another nation, before the game has even randomized placement and the game world. That is not balance, and it is not good MP gaming in Dominions.

Now, I don't expect all nations to be absolutely equal either, it is simply impossible, and this is where that diplomatic balance comes into play. But no nation should crystalize the diplomatic landscape of a game into a particular form before the game even starts.

[HoneyBadger]

It all goes back to Early game power, and Late game power. If a Nation is very powerful in the Early phase of the game, then it's justifiable that a couple other Nations might have to team them up to bring them down. But there should be a trade-off. Nations who start small should finish large, they should eventually "come into their own".

From what I'm reading, the problem with Hinnom is that it's always large, it always has a new trick to pull, which means that other Nations *have* to ally to bring it down-even the more powerful ones, like Lanka and Niefelheim. And I don't understand why they have such good PD. For a giant Nation to have the "best PD in the game" seems like a bit of a stretch...

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

It all goes back to Early game power, and Late game power. If a Nation is very powerful in the Early phase of the game, then it's justifiable that a couple other Nations might have to team them up to bring them down. But there should be a trade-off. Nations who start small should finish large, they should eventually "come into their own".

Heartily agree. I'd add even the Mid-game power into he sum (which doesn't also always translate in late game power), which some nations already make their strong point.

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Maybe another thing that could help balancing Hinnom and be thematic at the same time, would be if the civilians of the lands where Hinnom armies go, aren't exactly happy of being eaten alive just for fun by the invaders (in game mechanics = if Hinnom soldiers/commanders with the pop-eating feature have the unrest-increasing one as well).
The amount of micromanaging required to keep the loss of gold and further population at bay, could make playing Hinnom a bit more of a challenge and somewhat "justify" its high power...
The AI, on the other side, would never be able to manage this and would be probably screwed ^_^

[Aezeal]

I think that Hinnom might be nerved by lowering PD indeed and maybe lowering the chariot a size and give it some more resources.

I think Niefelheim is pretty strong early game, my latest game I rushed Lanka after year 1 when I knew others where not after me and I didn't have that much opposition and hardly any losses. The giants are strong... I must say I don't see much new options for me for the late game though... just more giants and kitted jarls and just bash and hope the best of it.

[HoneyBadger]

I just find early rushes with Niefelheim awfully risky, when you can just wait a little bit, and have an army that's twice as hard to take down. Against Lanka, it might be worth the payoff, since Lanka can be a real threat, at the same time Niefelheim is. And Lanka probably can't *take* an early rush quite as well as Niefelheim can-their PD's only a little better, and their troops are still expensive, and not as good in small numbers.

[Sombre]

Of course the AI is crap with Hinnom. Just can't use them.

[Tifone]

Actually I think it can, of course not like a player but it doesn't suck though. In all my solo games it is just after me in the graphs. If I started slowly, it can even be above. Anyway, around double the scores of every other EA nations in all the games I put them in - in everything except research (I think it can't use the advantage of having recruitable mages in every fort even without a lab).

[Sombre]

Really? In the couple of SP games I played they got a few provinces and then got stuck on that amount for 20+ turns. Definitely lower on the graphs than other races, especially fomoria.

That might have just been their scales or something though I guess.

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Really? In the couple of SP games I played they got a few provinces and then got stuck on that amount for 20+ turns. Definitely lower on the graphs than other races, especially fomoria.

That might have just been their scales or something though I guess.

Hinnom has sucked every time they were AI in my SP games. I suppose that's why I fail to comprehend the "Hinnom is over-powered" mantra.

[Edratman]

Originally Posted by Epaminondas

Hinnom has sucked every time they were AI in my SP games. I suppose that's why I fail to comprehend the "Hinnom is over-powered" mantra.

I agree with this. I played about 20 EA games trying to balance out my mods for better computer opponents and Hinnom never did that well.

One thing I did notice during the testing is that as an AI opponent they seem to have a lower castle build ratio than other nations.

I've tested two different mods for computer opponents and possessing some small observational ability I have deduced that JK is using a very low probability dice roll for AI castle builds that checks every AI owned province every turn. It appears that JK has assigned slightly different values for each AI opponent. The water nations appear to have the highest ratio. If you play mods as AI opponents, then they also seem to get a higher probability for castle builds. I suspect they get a default dice roll value that is greater than that of some standard nations.

No real science here, just observations by a very old engineer.