Orientalism in Dominions

[Adept]

Meh, the only "orientalist" problem is that japanese themed weapons are way overpowered (seriously, a katana is just a kind of a scimitar, and a yari is just a spear).

The more serious problem is that the early era japan theme demons get equipment from 1600 or so (katana's and other steel gear) where the other people mostly tool about with bronze age / iron age stuff.

[sum1lost]

Originally Posted by Adept

Meh, the only "orientalist" problem is that japanese themed weapons are way overpowered (seriously, a katana is just a kind of a scimitar, and a yari is just a spear).

The more serious problem is that the early era japan theme demons get equipment from 1600 or so (katana's and other steel gear) where the other people mostly tool about with bronze age / iron age stuff.

The japanese themed weapons are two handed, so they are actually underpowered compared to many of the other two handed weapons.

[TheMenacer]

Like I said in my previous post, I think the OP's point about orientalism is perfectly valid, but I don't think that the game's offensive in the slightest specifically because everyone gets painted with that brush pretty liberally. Yeah, you've totally got the eastern nations given a romanticized version of their mythology, but every other nation has it too, from the ice giants stomping around the frozen northlands to the forests full of faeries and trolls. There isn't a single nation who doesn't have aspects of their culture and mythology exaggerated and brought to the fore in order to make it more interesting. I mean hell look at the Ermor. They accidentally unleashed death itself trying to resurrect Jesus. I honestly don't think that's any more offensive than extrapolating a nation with hindu mythology from the monkey section of The Jungle Book.

[Poopsi]

Originally Posted by TheMenacer

Like I said in my previous post, I think the OP's point about orientalism is perfectly valid, but I don't think that the game's offensive in the slightest specifically because everyone gets painted with that brush pretty liberally. Yeah, you've totally got the eastern nations given a romanticized version of their mythology, but every other nation has it too, from the ice giants stomping around the frozen northlands to the forests full of faeries and trolls. There isn't a single nation who doesn't have aspects of their culture and mythology exaggerated and brought to the fore in order to make it more interesting. I mean hell look at the Ermor. They accidentally unleashed death itself trying to resurrect Jesus. I honestly don't think that's any more offensive than extrapolating a nation with hindu mythology from the monkey section of The Jungle Book.

Wait, wait, can someone fill me in about the backstory gleamed about Ermor? I thought it was more something on the lines of a doom prophecy (The EA ermor augurs have in their description something about sending researchers to Ctis to find out a new power that will help them rule the world, and that they are growing desperate because of a secret end-of-the-empire prophecy)

[Omnirizon]

No but the fact that the Ramayana is a stand in for "India" is. It emphasizes India as mythic romantic religous... and thus irrational. This is the instrumental outcome of Orientalism since a realist Europe felt justified to colonize and exploit a mystified India.

[HoneyBadger]

I don't know, Omnirizon...the more this issue is mulled over, the less it seems intentional (on whatever level), and the more it seems coincidental. And pertaining to Abyssia: Looking like a duck and walking like a duck ceases to apply when said duck is on fire Molecular/cellular diversions are just as valid differences-if not more so-than cosmetic ones. And the fact that Niefelheim falls under the same categorical shift as Abyssia rules them out as human, or humanoid. If I met somebody tomorrow that was 24 feet tall, and surrounded by a personal blizzard, my first thought wouldn't be "what a fine example of humanity". At the very least, as much would separate such a being from a "purely, merely" human being as a sentient, intelligent, pacifistic monkey of the Buddhist faith.

[Gregstrom]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

And pertaining to Abyssia: Looking like a duck and walking like a duck ceases to apply when said duck is on fire Molecular/cellular diversions are just as valid differences-if not more so-than cosmetic ones. And the fact that Niefelheim falls under the same categorical shift as Abyssia rules them out as human, or humanoid.

Thus:

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

Abysia, Agartha, Fomoria, Niefelheim and Hinnom are pretty much human-shaped, if definitely non-human.

I feel I've been mis-quoted. I only ever called the Sidhe/Tuatha and Vanir humanoid.

[chrispedersen]

Its a fantasy game, with fantasy flavors. Part of the mystique is far away lands, far away people, and things.

To argue that this is post coloninial jingoist heeby jeebyism is well silly. Do we make similar arguments for the japanese FF series, the popular korean series? Or do we just enjoy the flavors the author has written and say.. cool. I enjoy that.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Its a fantasy game, with fantasy flavors. Part of the mystique is far away lands, far away people, and things.

To argue that this is post coloninial jingoist heeby jeebyism is well silly. Do we make similar arguments for the japanese FF series, the popular korean series? Or do we just enjoy the flavors the author has written and say.. cool. I enjoy that.

I think someone else already pointed out in this thread how Orientalism came to shape the media exported from Japan/Korea. That is, what Orientalism told the world Japan/Korea was in turn shaped how Japan/Korea chose to represent themselves to the world.

That's why I said Orientalism is not an accusation that some conception is a mere collection of myths and fantasies, it is a theory (and a critique) of how the Occidental representations became reality.


An allegory that might help make it clear is the proverb:"life imitating art."

The American West that was appropriated by Hollywood and spaghetti westerns was only a mythic representation of the American west. Yet the American west began to don their representations in Hollywood as their own reality.


Knowing this, you can see why any theorist of Orientalism is unconcerned with the content of representation, why they are so concerned with the sublimation of their own work and thus write very obscurely, and why they all tend to be intellectual elitists especially regarding anything which even remotely smells of "mass culture".

I for one don't agree with skepticism towards mass culture. This is simple arrogance and is completely blind to the ways in which mass culture also engages in a sort of "obscurantist" anti-didactic modes of communication that conceal their work or make it totally undigestible to sublimation by the "pop industry monstrosity".

[HoneyBadger]

The central issue, I feel, is that we *are* dealing with mystification/romantification (such is the nature of the game)-but that we're mainly dealing with mystic elements that those cultures have imparted upon themselves, in some fashion. The exception may be India's portrayal, which is, as mentioned, based on Rudyard Kipling's 'The Jungle Book'. Thus, it is a myth, within a myth, within another myth, and much removed from the original material. *But*, not so far removed that it is a mockery. Kipling was stationed in Colonial India, and did his best to tell a story about India-that-was, albeit through European eyes. It's fantasy, but it's responsible fantasy, again-based atleast in part on actual beliefs (the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, for example). So, it's still myth, just a more modern myth than, say, the Norse sagas-which were, once again, transformed into stories by (probably) Snorri Snurluson, which might not reflect precisely the nature of the original material. It's just the best we have.

Snori may be a little closer to the original material, but Rudyard has every bit the right to tell a story as Snori does, and the story told is every bit as valid, and intriguing.