Western/Israeli MBT HEAT armor too high?

[Listy]

Lets have some figures shall we?

Tank; cause and effect; location; source; date
M1A1; Armbrust s-side nb-skirt, knocked out; Baghdad; official, pictures; 23/08/03
M1A1; RPG-29 shot through the side, knocked out, sent back to US; ?; US soldier; late 2003
M1A2; IED, 240-mm mortar, catastrophic (first), 3 KIA, driver WIA; Baquba; official; 27/10/03
M1A1; IED, catastrophic (second); ?; official; ?
M1A1; IED, catastrophic (third); ?; official; ?
M1A1; RPG to side, 1 KIA; ?; official, press; 07/04/04
M1A1; RPG to turret front, frag/burns to commander/loader, gunner also WIA (?); Fallujah; press, video; 07/04/04
M1A1; PG-7V s-side glacis, burnt out; Baghdad; press, picture; 10/04/04
M1A1; multiple RPG hits, burnt out; Sadr City; press, pictures; 17/08/04
M1A1; RPG attack, burnt out, 1 KIA; Ramadi; official, press; 10/11/04
M1A1; ambushed on trailer, burnt out; Baghdad; press; 22/11/04
M1A1; RPG s-side second last skirt, mobility killed; Mosul; press, pictures; 12/02/05
M1A1; AT mine, mobility killed; outside Fallujah; press, pictures; 11/03/05
M1A1; AT mine, mobility killed; Fallujah; US soldier; mid-2005
M1A1; IED, burnt out; ?; video; ?
M1A1; IED, burnt out; ?; video; ?
M1A2 SEP; IED, knocked out; Sadr City; US soldier, pictures; ?
M1A2 SEP; RPG s-side rear-skirt, engine killed; US soldier, pictures; ?
M1A2 SEP; RPG s-side turret side, commander/gunner WIA from spall; Sadr City; US soldier, pictures; ?
M1A2 SEP; RPG-29, knocked out; Sadr City; US soldier; ?
M1A2 SEP; RPG-29, knocked out; Sadr City; US soldier; ?
M1A2 SEP; AT IED (#1), loss; Sadr City; US soldier 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; AT IED (#2), loss; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; AT IED (#3), loss; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG (#1); knocked out; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG, heavily damaged; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG, heavily damaged; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG, heavily damaged; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG, heavily damaged; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG, heavily damaged; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG, heavily damaged; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG, heavily damaged; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG, heavily damaged; Sadr City; US soldier; 2004-2005
M1A2 SEP; IED or RPG (#10), knocked out; US soldier; Sadr City; 2004-2005
M1A1; IED, ruptured fuel cell, magazine detonation; Anbar Province; US soldier, picture; summer 2005
M1A1; IED, knocked out, unknown # of WIA/KIA; ?; US soldier, video; ?
M1A1; IED, burnt out; Southeast Baghdad; press, pictures; 25/12/05
M1A1; IED, knocked out, burning; Ramadi; video; 16/12/05
M1A1; IED, catastrophic, driver WIA; ?; US soldier; ?
M1A1; IED, burnt out; Eastern Baghdad; press, pictures; 10/03/06
M1##; IED, gunner paralyzed from severe whiplash; ?; US soldier; ?
M1A1; AT mine, mobility killed; ?; US soldier, video; ?
M1A1; IED, mobility killed; ?; video; February 2006
M1A1; IED, mobility killed; ?; video; 11/04/06
M1A1; IED, magazine detonation; ?; video, press; 15/09/06
M1A1; IED, knocked out, unknown # of WIA/KIA; North Baghdad; video; 09/10/06
M1A1; IED, burnt out; ?; video; ?
M1A2 SEP; IED, knocked out “destroyed”; ?; press; mid-2006
M1A1; IED, ruptured fuel cell, magazine detonation; Fallujah; press, video; 05/01/07

Yes, this list stops at the start of last year as that's when I found it.

CR2's killed to date:
25/3/2003 Hit by HESH round from a friendly tank. Round went in through the open commanders hatch. Picture Here.
??/8/06 RPG-29 Incident. Only source, Daily Telegraph account. Article.
6/4/07. Shaped charge IED detonated under the Tank. Source: MOD. Times Article.

Now if you could give us numbers of how many RPG-29's have been fired in Iraq, we can work out the incidence of Hits/ Penetrations.

[Companion]

Originally Posted by Listy

Lets have some figures shall we?
CR2's killed to date:
??/8/06 RPG-29 Incident. Only source, Daily Telegraph account. Article.

Now if you could give us numbers of how many RPG-29's have been fired in Iraq, we can work out the incidence of Hits/ Penetrations.

Damn, Hull penetration AFTER ERA? Didn't know 29 was that powerful. (I might actually buy into RHA 1200mm performance claim )

Maybe it could be the case that the RPG impacted at such a angle that the glacis' angled armor advantage was negotiated enough for penetration.

[Listy]

Originally Posted by Companion

Damn, Hull penetration AFTER ERA?

Its not ERA. I proved this on the old forums, and since then there's been options for a "Challenger 2+" with the Extra armour packs on the sides and front.

[PanzerBob]

Just to throw my two cents in.

First off there is nothing on the modern battlefield that can't be killed or as least disabled. To be sure there are some weapons systems that give this impression. Some Armies when everything is going IAW doctrine certainly can prevent the enemy from hitting its weak spots. However, this is combat we are talking about here and stuff happens during combat. In the scope of Steel Panthers/MBT the Challenger story would be a kill or at very least a heavily suppressed immobilized tank. Either way combat ineffective (except I'm sure it PO'd the insurgents involved)

A game I've played recently against Egyptian M1's, to be sure, I did spend a lot of time and effort winging rounds off their frontal arc. But at some point a kill/combat ineffective state can be achieved. This is usually using all manner of weapons including HEAT rounds. My point being I don't think there's much out of whack with the armour ratings as is.

I might mention as well that as good as the IDF may be, I'm sure their enemies while not as well trained and motivated differently, have come up with tactics that allow some successes on occasion. IIRC Merkva loses are pretty much a state secret for the most part. This is telling in itself.

These are my opinions and this is an interesting topic so let's continue on gentlemen.

[Companion]

Originally Posted by Listy

Its not ERA. I proved this on the old forums, and since then there's been options for a "Challenger 2+" with the Extra armour packs on the sides and front.

But still, it's quite a feat. People wouldn't put additional armor for no reason.

On the other hand, it is also true that one newspiece cannot prove effectiveness of a weapon system especially since the journalist credibility is at question (mentioning nonexistant ERA)
and specific place and angle of the impact is unknown (as we all know, not all rounds hit the best protected part)

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by Companion

But still, it's quite a feat. People wouldn't put additional armor for no reason.

On the other hand, it is also true that one newspiece cannot prove effectiveness of a weapon system especially since the journalist credibility is at question (mentioning nonexistant ERA)
and specific place and angle of the impact is unknown (as we all know, not all rounds hit the best protected part)

It is probably best that the specific place and angle of any penetration remains secret. In any case, the CR2 was neither blown up nor immobilised by the alleged rpg and thankfully no crewmen were killed.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Companion

Damn, Hull penetration AFTER ERA? Didn't know 29 was that powerful. (I might actually buy into RHA 1200mm performance claim )

Maybe it could be the case that the RPG impacted at such a angle that the glacis' angled armor advantage was negotiated enough for penetration.

I don't think so. The RPG-29 has a 105mm or so main warhead with a small precursor charge. This means it can deal with ERA but while penetrations in excess of ten warhead diameters are supposed to be possible now (or so it has been claimed) they were definitively not possible on a production weapon when the RPG-29 was developed.

The Challenger 2 was developed during the Cold war. Hull down defense against a numerical superior enemy advance would be a common engagement in this scenario. This required fairly impenetrable turret fronts even at the expense of the rest of the armored scheme, which while generally quite good, might not always be impervious to the greatest and latest OPFOR weapons.