Smoke candles

[chuckfourth]

Well there does seem to be some confusion here, firstly as for rarity all the pz 3 from auf f had 5 of these these "smoke bombs" fitted as standard. the minimum introduction date for the smoke bomb thus becomes 07/40, according to the game, but these sites
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...iii-ausf-f.asp
"-auf f- Were issued to the Panzer divisions starting in late 1939"
and
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iii.htm
""In September of 1939, another new variant - Ausf F (5-serie) entered production""
Seems the current in-game introduction date for unit 583 pz 3 auf f is about a year too late. 07/40 is the date that they began upgunning auf f to 50mm

that aside,

Auchtung panzer also has this to say regarding pz 3 auf f and smoke bombs.
"Ausf F vehicles were fitted with a hull rear mounted rack of five smoke generators remotely released from the turret"
note the use of the word release rather than fire or ignite. ie they are dropped on the ground.
comparing the employment of these smoke bombs to a diesel-injection smoke system thus becomes a nonsense. The injection system stays with the tank whereas the smoke candles/bombs are dropped on the ground allowing the tank to then reverse behind it. Or it can just turn away and drop them as it turns which probably gets the smoke between it and the AT gun even quicker.
esp as pz 3 can spin the tracks in opposite directions. ie turn on a dime.

OK then, the tank drops the smoke can and reverses over it to get out of sight.
Currently the game models the smoke bomb dropper the same as the smoke bomb discharger whats the downside not much, How long would that take to get behind the smoke, 10 seconds maybe 20 how long are the turns 3 minutes or more? Just pretend the game turn time to 3 minutes and 10 seconds. The game certainly has some other similar compromises. For example a landing craft can move its full movement points then the discharged vehicle can also moves its full movement points thats a 3 minute turn stretched into a 6 minute turn.

If the early panzer III's have their smoke bombs removed/ignored then AT guns can keep shooting at them for turn after turn, thats as many shots as they have ammunition. Whereas in reality they would get off only one or two shots before the tank would have reversed out of sight behind the smoke.
ie The pz 3 has to stand up to possibly hundreds of AT rounds when in reality it should only have to face up to one or two.
On the other hand,
Model the smoke bomb dropper the same as the smoke bomb discharger (as is currently the case in-game) and the AT gun will get only one shot at the pz3 rather than the -maybe- 2 it would have in reality.
ie the AT gun is only slightly disadvantaged, or not disadvantaged at all, depending on how long it takes a pz 3 to get behind its dropped smoke compared to the guns Rate of fire.

My Question is this, which is closer to reality?

Best Regards Chuck

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

How long would that take to get behind the smoke, 10 seconds maybe 20 how long are the turns 3 minutes or more?

Forgetting the time needed to spot danger and to react. And, if the tank is moving, to stop it and go to reverse or "dime turn" - try doing that at full speed and you'd throw the track. I suspect first crew reaction would not be dropping smoke but trying to suppress the AT gun or "sprint" to cover. Kinda like that famous Polish "cavalry charge against tanks" - it was not a charge, but a retreat, the Poles knew well that they have to get ASAP into forest and shortest route went through the Panzers. They knew if they tried to turn back (away from the tanks) they'd get slaughtered doing so as they'd have to slow and begin turning in full view of the enemy.
Same applies for tanks, turning on dime is nice but it still shows nicely thin side armour (in fact with later PzIII's the thinnest place).
As for the smoke itself, would be pretty limited and might even be more detrimental to the tank than to the enemy, after all the ATG crew may fire blindly through, if they're quick enough the tank is still somewhere there and the ATG position is fixed, whereas tank crew loses any clue on enemy position the moment it backs into the smoke.
By the way, try not to exaggerate, I have yet to see a tank in SP having to withstand "hundreds" of AT gun rounds. That is if you do not leave Tiger sitting with disabled weapons in front of company of 37mm popguns. If your tanks have to suffer hundreds of rounds fired at them, there is some serious flaw in your setup and no amount of smoke dischargers will mend it

[chuckfourth]

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

Forgetting the time needed to spot danger and to react.

The time needed to spot danger and to react is the same irrespective of wether the tank has forward firing smoke dischargers or rear mounted smoke droppers so this time can be safely ignored. Im talking about the extra time it takes the Pz 3 to get behind the smoke compared to tanks with forward firing smoke dispensers, once the -decision- to create a smoke screen has been made.

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

And, if the tank is moving, to stop it and go to reverse or "dime turn" - try doing that at full speed and you'd throw the track.

I mention dime turns to point out that the pz 3 has some extra manouverability compared to the run of the mill tank that could be considered as offsetting dropping the smoke at the rear as opposed to firing it out the front. Im not suggesting that the tank driver doesnt know how to drive. In any case I would imagine that if there is the chance of AT guns being around the tanks are moving somewhat more cautously than full speed.

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

I suspect first crew reaction would not be dropping smoke but trying to suppress the AT gun

Not if you havn't identified the whereabouts of the AT gun, the tanks usual problem.

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

or "sprint" to cover.

Not in the desert or flat russians steppes me-thinks.

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

Kinda like that famous Polish "cavalry charge against tanks" - it was not a charge, but a retreat, the Poles knew well that they have to get ASAP into forest and shortest route went through the Panzers. They knew if they tried to turn back (away from the tanks) they'd get slaughtered doing so as they'd have to slow and begin turning in full view of the enemy.
Same applies for tanks, turning on dime is nice but it still shows nicely thin side armour (in fact with later PzIII's the thinnest place).

reverse or turn, depends on the situation.

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

As for the smoke itself, would be pretty limited

Why?

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

and might even be more detrimental to the tank than to the enemy, after all the ATG crew may fire blindly through, if they're quick enough the tank is still somewhere there and the ATG position is fixed, whereas tank crew loses any clue on enemy position the moment it backs into the smoke.

This applies equally to tanks with forward firing and rearwards dropping smoke.

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

By the way, try not to exaggerate, I have yet to see a tank in SP having to withstand "hundreds" of AT gun rounds. That is if you do not leave Tiger sitting with disabled weapons in front of company of 37mm popguns. If your tanks have to suffer hundreds of rounds fired at them, there is some serious flaw in your setup and no amount of smoke dischargers will mend it

You inference is that I am suggesting the inclusion of pz3 etc smoke to pander to my own style of playing, this is wrong. I think the Pz 3 should get smoke because they had smoke. They used it for the very same purpose as forward firing dischargers, to screen the tank. Removing the smoke from the tank on a technicality seems wrong to me. The game glosses over any number of other similar 'technicalities' in other areas simply because it is a simulation, not reality.

By the way what if the wind is blowing from behind the tanK? no difference whatsoever.

of interest from Lone sentry.
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/s...ics/index.html

"Smoke shells are not fired by the Pz. Kpfw. II [2] or the Pz. Kpfw. III [3], both of which are equipped to discharge "smoke pots" with a range of approximately 50 yards. These pots are released electrically, and are employed chiefly to permit the tank to escape when caught by antitank fire."

Best Regards Chuck