Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!

[rdonj]

Keep in mind that that would basically be like giving them aoe crossbows that can't be stopped by shields. I don't think that would be terribly fair, especially after you got wind guide researched and your opponent realized that arrow fend won't stop the flames anymore.

[ano]

Epaminondas
Nice question about France. No, France was not overpowered, it was Napoleon who was and this is the answer to this discussion as our game is in many aspects similar with those big wars - most of success of a nation belongs to player but while a good player may do well and win with a weak nation, a powerful player with powerful nation often can't be stopped by any means other than ganging upon him.

[Tifone]

I agree with Sombre on that. Possibly I fail to see the thematicness of Onis shooting so precise fires.

Originally Posted by ano

No, France was not overpowered, it was Napoleon who was[...]

Was he an SC? Maybe a Seraph?

[MaxWilson]

I would keep the imprecision of Throw Flames but boost the base precision of the Oni troops somewhat, on the theory that they're immortal and have had ages to practice throwing flames at peasants.

-Max

[Gandalf Parker]

Opinions become facts if you get more than a couple of people to agree with you.
Its not surprising that MPers want to balance the game for MP.
Its also not surprising that they fail to consider Solo gamers.

To get really involved in the MP games, you have to join the forum. But to Solo play its not such a necessity. You can lurk, and search, for a long time. The sales numbers, and the numbers of forum visitors that are registered vs unregistered tends to show how the numbers really compare. But in the forums its easy to get the impression that the game is mostly MPers of a certain type. If you hang around the other forums, or the IRC channel, you get another impression of a different grouping.

Unfortunately, altho the soloists are probably the majority, they will always be the minority in discussions.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Opinions become facts if you get more than a couple of people to agree with you.
Its not surprising that MPers want to balance the game for MP.
Its also not surprising that they fail to consider Solo gamers.

To get really involved in the MP games, you have to join the forum. But to Solo play its not such a necessity. You can lurk, and search, for a long time. The sales numbers, and the numbers of forum visitors that are registered vs unregistered tends to show how the numbers really compare. But in the forums its easy to get the impression that the game is mostly MPers of a certain type. If you hang around the other forums, or the IRC channel, you get another impression of a different grouping.

Unfortunately, altho the soloists are probably the majority, they will always be the minority in discussions.

you're being a solo gamer totalitarian. however it is a falsifiable hypothesis that solo gamers need the game balanced for them like MP gamers do. The fact that solo gamers don't MP has just axiomatically disproven that hypothesis. MP gamers have some sort of (slightly ambiguous) reference point for balancing nations in MP. What is the SP reference point of balance?

P.S. I'm just being antagonistic because you pointed out the situated nature of knowledge, and then went on to use it for your own purposes of arguing for a situated point of view.

[Sombre]

Apart from being on of your favourite ways to separate dom3 players into two groups, what does that actually have to do with this topic Gandalf?

[Ballbarian]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Apart from being on of your favourite ways to separate dom3 players into two groups, what does that actually have to do with this topic Gandalf?

Gandalf's post added more to the discussion than yours just did (or mine for that matter).

(Sorry. Couldn't resist. )

[thejeff]

That's nice, Gandalf. And probably even true.

But does it actually have any relevance to Hinnom's power?
I do play mostly SP. Hinnom is unbalanced. I'm not that good a player, but it's not even fun using it against the AI. You can just roll over them.

And it's not even that useful as an uber AI opponent, since the AI doesn't do well with it's strengths. Hinnom is all about SCs and small groups of tough troops. The AI can't build or script SCs, won't use small efficient groups of troops, but just throws a mish-mash of recruits together and sends them out. If you give it a decent bless, half time it won't bother blessing the troops or sending out sacreds in the first place.
About the only thing that really helps the AI is the good PD.
The AI just isn't good at using nations like Hinnom, so why is it a problem to balance it for MP? To me it looks like the changes will help keep it from being easy for SP, while not crippling the AI anymore than it already is. Do you think Hinnom is particularly good for SP as it is? Are there different changes you'd suggest?

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by thejeff

But does it actually have any relevance to Hinnom's power? I do play mostly SP. Hinnom is unbalanced. I'm not that good a player, but it's not even fun using it against the AI. You can just roll over them.

And it's not even that useful as an uber AI opponent, since the AI doesn't do well with it's strengths. Hinnom is all about SCs and small groups of tough troops.

*cough* Ashdod is "unbalanced" too. Admittedly, any nation which can produce thugs and SCs is "unbalanced" against the AI once you get to that stage, but Ashdod with an E10N6 bless is pretty ridiculous too. A single E10N6 Adon can take pretty much any indy province except knights, elephants, or barbarians all on his own even before you research Body Ethereal. He's almost impossible for indies to damage, regenerates, and has 0 enc. (Add in some Ahimans to take down elephants and knights.) You can be taking 4 provinces/turn around later winter of the first year, constrained mostly by geography. Ashdods best researchers aren't quite as good as LA Agartha, even post-Agarthan nerf, but they're sacred (and high-research if you feel like saving points w/ Drain). Ashdod has a forge bonus for equipping SCs and native earth/death/fire income, so making a Shadow Brand + Shield of Gleaming Gold for every Adon is eminently possible once you hit Const-6. The AI has no way to stop SCs, and it's impossible to lose quickly enough to not get SCs... I think Ashdod is the first nation I've tried where I have never lost a game to the AI even in the learning phase. (Ashdod's national summons aren't even really an issue here because the game is over before you get them--but E10N6 Dirge For The Dead is amazing for the price.)

I don't think this says anything per se about whether Ashdod is overpowered in general (SCs are a known problem for the AI) but in SP it's kind of sick.

-Max