OT: US President (US Dom Players only)

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

Did this mean that your employer in each case was incompetent, and should not be allowed to manage workers? Maybe it just meant that not enough care or attention was put into minimizing the abusability of the workplace, and/or disincentivizing the abuse itself?

The difference here is that if my employer hires someone incompetent or messed up in some other way then its the company which suffers and may eventually die to competition. Now in regards to government we don't have any second, third, tenth, etc., option which will take over. You cannot compare companies to government... apples & rocks.

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

We created these problems ourselves. We unleashed this monster of a "federal government" upon our prosperous land. 100 years ago, this was an entirely different world, with different needs, different concerns, and different ideals. 100 years later, everything has changed, but our government is still essentially the same.

A man whom I hold in high regard warned us to keep changing and improving our methods of governance, because he felt that ANY system, if left in place in any given incarnation for too long, would become abused beyond usefulness. He helped make our country, and he told us to keep changing it, to keep innovating - or we would allow ourselves to become burdened with self-interested bureaucrats and bankers.

The people who stand to lose power, will try to convince you that it is un-American to want to change our mode of governance, to want to become something greater than we already are - but in truth, it is the highest of American ideals that we have the ingenuity and the sense to form a more perfect union, each form more perfect than the last.

<3

I agree more perfect than the last... which means we have to repair our current government departments before adding new ones such as healthcare. As I wrote earlier if a college student is having serious problems with his classes you do not sign him up with another 4 credit class.

[Bwaha]

The one position that I agree with Obama is his dislike of the "Real Id" laws. I heard some people talking about it and was horrified. Bigger Brother...

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by PyroStock

Citation Needed.

Wait, out of all of this bickering, you want to vet this statement?

The claim is anecdotal. That is to say, it is only an observation gleaned from my own trials. Don't believe me? I don't really care if you do or not. I'm the one that made the phone calls - the list was provided by my hospital. I am afraid that I did not record the phone calls, nor publish an article about my experience, that I can then reference here.

But, thank you for caring about veracity, hopefully at some point you can find something even more meaningful to contribute to the discussion.

Originally Posted by NTJedi

The difference here is that if my employer hires someone incompetent or messed up in some other way then its the company which suffers and may eventually die to competition. Now in regards to government we don't have any second, third, tenth, etc., option which will take over. You cannot compare companies to government... apples & rocks.

I guess maybe what I was trying to say, is that perhaps our best option now is to create that second option - to give ourselves the choice between a barely functioning old workhorse, or a newer model, with more torque, that maybe has a few kinks to work out.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

I guess maybe what I was trying to say, is that perhaps our best option now is to create that second option - to give ourselves the choice between a barely functioning old workhorse, or a newer model, with more torque, that maybe has a few kinks to work out.

I agree the healthcare system needs to be improved, but it has to be researched and approached cautiously. We don't want to crack a the walls of a dam so our farms receive more water and then discover the end result was the dam breaking and destroying a village.
Ideally we should hold a brainstorming session with the smartest minds in America to organize a list of options which include government and non-government. Then these options should each be tested within small parts of america. Problems and abuses can be identified and either fixed or re-examined. Upon success each option expands into more towns and eventually a city. Upon sucess the option is adopted into the entire state and continues to gradually expand into the rest of America.

Our government taking control of healthcare right now is way too risky.

[PyroStock]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

Wait, out of all of this bickering, you want to vet this statement?

The claim is anecdotal. That is to say, it is only an observation gleaned from my own trials. Don't believe me?

Why so defensive??? I never said I didn't believe you saw it happen somewhere. I make a harmless request and you roll your eyes?

My mistake, I thought actually were trying to form a solid argument with sound reasoning, but it's more just an opinion based on anecdotal emotions and logical fallacies. Your statement(s?) is not much different than someone saying a certain race, gender, religion is far more discriminatory (with the needy) because of their individual experience with "those people". Thanks for sharing....

I am afraid that I did not record the phone calls, nor publish an article about my experience, that I can then reference here.

Which would still be anecdotal evidence and be just as useless... perhaps you're trying to make me laugh. The next time someone calls BS on your negative sweeping generalizations try a different response.

But, thank you for caring about veracity, hopefully at some point you can find something even more meaningful to contribute to the discussion.

Perhaps you could contribute something meaningful to the discussion?

[rdonj]

Pyrostock - I maintain a sincere belief that anecdotal experiences are often underrated, that giving answers that are truthful is a good thing, and that as this is a gaming forum rather than a forum for political debate, we can relax the standards for what's acceptable for a person to post here just a little.

And meanwhile, before you go attacking others, why don't you go and contribute something meaningful to the conversation yourself? Currently jimmorrison's smileys are adding more to the conversation than you are. Thank you and have a nice day.

[PyroStock]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Pyrostock - I maintain a sincere belief that anecdotal experiences are often underrated, that giving answers that are truthful is a good thing, and that as this is a gaming forum rather than a forum for political debate, we can relax the standards for what's acceptable for a person to post here just a little.

And meanwhile, before you go attacking others, why don't you go and contribute something meaningful to the conversation yourself? Currently jimmorrison's smileys are adding more to the conversation than you are. Thank you and have a nice day.

Thanks for your opinion, but relax. My post was no more of an "attack" than Jimmorrison's initial response to me which you conveniently ignored.

When I saw OT in the thread I falsely assumed it would be similar to those in other turn-based OT forums. I have no desire to further discuss the fallacies of anecdotal experiences. Since this conversation has the more vocal people value anecdotal experiences I will share mine. Of all the charities and "helping the needy" organizations I assisted/worked... none asked/insisted/pushed the needy be a certain religion. Whether it was directly helping someone in need (such as handicap bowlers or soup kitchen) or indirectly such as disaster funds... there were no "enlist in church" sheets, no brimstone&fire pseudo-preachers trying to save to the infidels and no stamps with "DENIED WRONG RELIGION" on them. I will return you to your regularly scheduled smileys...

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

but it still goes to show that even statistics are never objective

Of course statistics can be manipulated like the selection bias with Brooks, but that doesn't make all statistics useless. For good reason, the decisions for countless propositions, the supreme court and the next US president are ultimately decided by the results of some statistics. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by PyroStock

Since this conversation has the more vocal people value anecdotal experiences I will share mine. Of all the charities and "helping the needy" organizations I assisted/worked... none asked/insisted/pushed the needy be a certain religion. Whether it was directly helping someone in need (such as handicap bowlers or soup kitchen) or indirectly such as disaster funds... there were no "enlist in church" sheets, no brimstone&fire pseudo-preachers trying to save to the infidels and no stamps with "DENIED WRONG RELIGION" on them. I will return you to your regularly scheduled smileys...

The irony here, is that while (in context) I found your other post a little insulting, and thus responded with a tinge of anger, I like this post.

Obviously, there will be many different experiences among many different people. However, anecdotal observations are invaluable in assessing the reality of situations (as long as those observers are honest), in ways that a more removed "authority" may not be able to see. That is, unless more people gathering information on such things want to take the time and effort to make up a fake story, and call around various organizations, fishing for data.

In my situation, it was simple enough though. My own "statistics" were skewed from the beginning. Probably a good 50% of the "charitable organizations" on this list provided by my hospital, stated quite clearly next to the phone number that they provided assistance to church members only. There are only 2 ways you can take that (and one is awfully optimistic), but I don't belong to ANY church, so it didn't matter. Anyway, the rest all have their own little agendas as well. Some would only help me if I had children, some would only help if I was a drug addict, and yes I applied for Oregon Health Plan again, and my rejection letter actually told me that they were only accepting unmarried males without dependents in my age bracket - if they were illegal aliens.....

[PyroStock]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

Obviously, there will be many different experiences among many different people. However, anecdotal observations are invaluable in assessing the reality of situations (as long as those observers are honest), in ways that a more removed "authority" may not be able to see. That is, unless more people gathering information on such things want to take the time and effort to make up a fake story, and call around various organizations, fishing for data.

Invaluable for assessing the reality of those specific situations individually, but limited anecdotal evidence is poor for making sweeping generalizations.

[Mithras]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

LOL... if you earn $200 a week paying $2 for that week in taxes won't be changing anything. Second I never said EVERYONE would be paying taxes... nice jump of wild assumptions.

Hmm sorry I guess I shouldn't have taken this at face value, so you propose something more like 0%-8%? Anf 200 dollor a week thing was more of an example of tax exemptions, but I must say the lower your income is the more every penny of your money is worth, its an inversely exponentol relation ship (I think) therefore the rate of increase in taxation should increase in higher incomes. I think its whats happening now?

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Well the flat tax should first be tested in two small sections of America. Then any problems/imbalances can be identified and adjusted and gradually expand into the rest of America. I've heard the flat tax has worked terrific for the Russian government. The purpose of the flat tax is so when someone like Bill Gates earns 12.8 billion in a year he would pay a solid flat tax... even an 8% tax means 1 billion dallors. In my opinion the flat tax should gradually increase depending on income, thus the single mom would pay 1%.

Originally Posted by NTJedi;650130[QUOTE=Mithras

Oh and stop blaming the civil servants! Pay the elected representatives less, and make the presidental candidates donate their campaign money instead of throwing it at the voters. Never mind wastage in govenrment any elected represntative of the people is forced to wastefull... I prefer the argumant over Robin Hood, its hard to argue over government efficiency because making something like that more efficient would require genocide

Unfortunately none of these suggestions will occur because elected representatives will never vote for a pay decrease, presidential candidates won't donate their money lottery ticket for the presidency, and tossing more money at the government has not worked in the past and won't work in the future. Finally Robin Hood stole from the government and returned the money to the poor.[/quote]
I hope people saw that at a joke, just in case I am not promoting the murder of civil servants. BTW I was just saying I'd rather argue over the morality of Robin Hood as apposed to what type of taxing system we should use. Seeing as I knownothing about taxation and any fool who's read half the Bible (or other holy book) or in fact lived in society can argbue about morality. And before you say anything I wont stop because what I lack in expertise I make up for in having a slightly differant pointof view.
I noticed you used the word returned, there may be hope for you yet .

Originally Posted by NTJedi

As I wrote earlier Robin Hood was stealing from the government... not hardworking farmers who had extra food. And in regards to your question... would it be wrong for a starving homeless individual to break into your home so he has the nourishment to continue living? Because you weren't home when he knocked on the door and to him you are rich.

Hard working farmers? I said landlords i.e. the people given the authority to tax the peasants, and abusing it.
And to answer the question it would be right if said farmer was directly responsable for the starvation of said thief. Thats the thingabout old Hood, he didn't take from any old rich people, just rich people who'd abused the poor people in the first place.

Oh and because the tax row is boring me, a summery of my stance.
Any current system of taxation leaves someone unhappy (rich, poor, government, or all of them) any other system of taxation would be costly to change to and cause at least one of the above groups unhappy. There will always be ineffiency and to a lesser degree corruption.
As long as people who could reasonalbly be saved aren't dying(this means no over taxation of the poor, a decent police service, free/affordable universal healthcar etc) Then the tax systems ok for me. But as I said I neither pay taxes nor vote, so take it all with the boring spice of your choice