Modders, Race Creators and TDM-creators

Taera · #1 May 26th, 2002, 08:49 PM

oleg: yes, but still - did MM ever say they actually will balance the PPB?

If you ever create any AI that uses "unconventional" weapons, please let me know - i'll be more than happy to play with them

Only i dont have gold...

Mephisto · #2 May 26th, 2002, 11:03 PM

Don't just count the main weapons. The EA will use shield depleters, the Torons will use allegiance subverters. If you want a somewhat competitive race you just have to use some weapons. There is no point using missiles in late game for example. Temporal weapons are quite good but I do not have a temporal race. Psychic weapons are quite weak unfortunately. The Narn use the talisman so they have to use "maximum weapons range" so they have to use APBs. What would you suggest?

Taera · #3 May 26th, 2002, 11:58 PM

Still, many races could use different weapons for their ships. And psychic is not weak, is one of the strongest tech trees in the game IMO. or at least in the beginning and middle game.

Alpha Kodiak · #4 May 27th, 2002, 12:53 AM

Check out my newly posted Azorani and see what you think. They might give you a little variety.

Deathstalker · #5 May 27th, 2002, 12:56 AM

Check out some AI's I did awhile back (for non-gold). Most reside at Kuat Drive Yards but some can be found on the PBW site as well as others.

StarWars Empire I (sw-emp1): Meason BLasters and CSM moving to Plasma Missiles and High Energy weapons

Y'Gathian FreeStates: Combination Organic/Crystalline weapons.

EEEvil Empire: DUC's, Ripper Beams, Wave Motion Guns, Kamakazie ships,

StarWars Empire II (sw-emp2): Meason BLasters, Wormhole Guns.

Rebels (sw-reb): Meason BLasters and Anti-matter/Quantum Torps,

Sw-Emp3 (Thrawn): Meason/Torps.

Red Gauntlets Merc Unit: DUC's, HighEnergy Discharge.

Nostropholo: Combo of Organic/Crystalline wpns.

Cephalopeian Kingdom: Psychic/Organic combo.

Also check out Atraikius's Orks, they use Torps, missiles, duc's and a host of other stuff, as well as earlier Versions of his Zorians which have almost every ship doubling as a carrier

. The Angelic Regency is also good, relying almost totally on DUC's, and the Vikings are also quite varied in their ship designs.

There are some damn fine 'different' AI's out there. The Rage just started the cycle of PPB ruling the roost. Then the Aquilaeians came along and Ionic weapons ruled the day (along with the Pyrochette). To be honest I too miss the days of facing the Krill/Jraenar/Terrans coming at me with massive missile fleets.

raynor · #6 May 27th, 2002, 01:00 AM

I don't really expect MM to ever balance the weapons. I think they have many, many more pressing issues. For example, didn't I see that they are just now beta-testing a fix that will let the AI use troops or somesuch?

I think it is up to the modders out there to sit down and completely re-design the tech tree. I think everyone agrees that it has even more gaping holes in it than the AI.

But while it is a lot of fun to design your own races, re-designing the tech tree is a pretty daunting task.

I have an idea for a program that will let you compare the ships of different races at particular points in time so that you can evaluate what changes to the research order and ship designs will have vs. another AI.

The biggest problem with completely re-designing the tech tree is going back in an play-balancing everything. If it were possible to make one change to a weapon and then "predict" its effect on several different races, then this task would be much, much easier.

Writing such a tool would be a lot of fun--but not more fun than sleeping.

BTW, whose idea to allow 100 ships instead of 30?!?

God Emperor · #7 May 27th, 2002, 01:01 AM

The problem that most modders have identified I believe is that the AI cannot effectively utilise a combination of weapons, and also will immediately use the level 1 Version of a weapon over a previous (say) level 5 type. This encourages the choice of a limited number of weapons with similar (long ranges) - ie PPB, NSP, APB, CSM. Other special weapons such as engine overloaders and shield depleters can be useful and interesting secondary weapons but thats about it.
I have found modding to be a process of determining the weapon, ship design etc that AI can best use under all circumstances (because it is incapable of paper-rock, scissors-paper, rock-scissors reactions).

In ship design, the best example of this is that all of my races include minesweeping components and their minesweepers are armed. A human would most likely have a dedicated fleet of minesweepers but the AI's poor use of its ship types leads to the design of ships that can do a bit of everything - ie so that when the AI encounters a given circumstance, all of its warships have some ability to contribute to a solution.

As a result, I do not intend to make radical changes in my races with regard to weapon use - the PPB's, NSP's, APB's and CSM's are the best all round weapons that a non organic/temporal/ psychic AI can use effectively (IMHO).

I would be interested though to hear if anyone can get the AI to effectively use other weapon types or combinations.

Regards,
GE