3in 20cwt AA and 3.7in AA not found?

[montieth]

MOBhack, I know this is an OLD thread, but I feel I must address a number of misunderstandings you have about the 3.7 inch Vickers HAA gun.

Direct fire sights WERE fitted a as a standard component on SOME mounts. There are photos of 3.7 HAA gun crews firing the guns at practice targets at Malta. The Fittings are clearly purpose built. You'll note that the 88 has the Traverse and Elevation crewman facing the gun mount to the side of the gun mount (facing the trunnion side from the left). Under director control they did this and under direct fire control they did this, that's where the controls were. Adjustments MUST be commanded by the Gun Captain. The 3.7 has the T and E crewman sitting in seats facing the Directer dials with their backs to the target. BUT, when under direct fire control they move around to the other side of the director dial and can still reach their T and E controls (not wheels, but two handles fitted like a sort of bicycle pedal arrangement (look at a 40mm Bofors).

Direct fire shoots were RARE early on in the war. The Tobruk example is one. In one case a Tiger unit was able to penetrate british lines back to the area of where a 3.7 HAA unit was still setup, they did NOT survive the encounter. The 3.7 Vickers gun outranged the Tigers and the battery was able to dispatch them completely.

Later on, prepatory to D-Day, various units conducted direct fire shoots AND the mounts along the coast of England also had Direct fire sites fitted for both AA defense AND for surface defense.

The final MK VI mounting WAS too big for mobile use however mobile mounts were used in mobile form earlier on. There were multiple types of mounts for mobile and fixed use with inland fixed mounts not having the direct fire sights (or left in units stores).

The next interesting thing that's missing is that the 3.7 guns that DID go to Normandy were in fact MORE used for indirect fire roles than direct or AAA roles. Why? They could fire under director control, had a VERY good time fuze system that could be set preceisely and FAST allowing airbursts with a more substantial rate of fire than other artillery could effect (fixed ammunition, automatic fuze setting on the gun mount, a higher rate of fire as designed and in some mounts, a power rammer).

The reason we don't hear about very many 3.7 HAA engagements against german ground forces is because the size of the 3.7 mandated that it was treated as a weapon for the AGRAs and NOT to be pushed down to the lower front line battalions. The range that they had also meant (They're guns of course) that to engage indirect targets, they're NOT going to be near the front line. Since they were to the rear, they didn't see themselves confronted by local german heavy counter attacks AND the germans never had any breakthroughs into British rears in teh later part of the war, more or less being on the defensive most of the time. We don't see them in North Africa much, because in the early part of the war, North Africa was the red headed stepchild to British forces deployments, defense of the home front had priority.

A friend of mine in Texas who works for Lockheed Martin managed to get a good bit of data and history on these guns and researched all of these points. IF you'd like to see the more precise details I can dig them up on my harddrive.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Monteith
One thing you might check with your friend, Tigers didnt appear in North Africa until the Turnisian Pocket formed so wernt avilbale for assaults on Tobruck.
Best Regards Chuck.

[montieth]

I remembering from memory as to the actual date/time of the engagement, but it was certainly tigers in North Africa. I had assumed from memory it was tobruk, but, thinking about the time line, you are right.

Well, found the photos but I'll also write Derek and ask if he has the writeups on what he found from unit histories. As I said, I found the photos of the guns he sent me but not the research materials (aside from a hard to read letter from a veteran who crewed the guns).

I'll write out the letter here. Intersting, I had mis-rememberd that it was in North Africa. It was apparently in Nijmegan. Must have been after the Market Garden op or on the tail end of it when the Allies knocked around on the island opposite the Germans.

Dear Derek
I don't know that I can be much help to you about the 3.7 AA in AT role.
We operated in an AT role against german tiger tanks in the Reischwald forest, near Nigjmegan in Octoer 1940 [prob 1944] using 3.7s.
I was not on the guns then, being observation officer in the AA operations room, and also in the OP in Nijmegan stadium in a fox hole(?) [unreadable line] the gun-flashes from the German tanks. The shells whistled past the OP BOX like express trains.
As far as training for AT role, the lads said they were presented with armour piercing shells and told to "get on with it" and happily fired away as instructed by the Ops Room, which of course relayed direction, range & elevation etc. Sorry thats all I can tell you.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

IIRC in the netherlands oob theres a 3.7 inch inf gun for DF and IF

[montieth]

British weapons can be confusing.

Is that the 3.7" HAA gun? Or is that the early limited pattern 3.7inch infantry howitzer that was obsolete by the middle of the war? If the range isn't around 18,000 yards, then its probably not the 3.7 HAA vickers.

Ordnance, Q.F. 3.7-inch How Mk 3 on Carriage Mk 4P
http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/37inchowsheet.htm

The 3.7-inch How was designed before WW1 but did not enter service until about early 1917, and was used in Palestine and East Africa with both British and Indian mountain batteries, although the first users were probably the Hong Kong & Singapore battery with the Imperial Camel Corps in Palestine. Between the wars they were used on the NW Frontier of India and developed a reputation for accurate and consistent shooting. During the 1930's they were also used in light batteries in regular British infantry divisions. Designed as pack artillery they could be disassembled and carried by mules or towed by short draught (no limber). In the 1930's they were further adapted for vehicle towing, the Mk 2P carriage. During WW2 they had some use in European and African theatres and initially with airborne batteries, being generally but not entirely replaced by 75-mm M1, 3.7-inch How batteries accompanied 1 Cdo Bde across the Rhine at Wesel in 1945. However, they were most widely used in Burma, mainly by Indian mountain batteries but also by British field and light batteries, and continued to serve on India's NW Frontier. A few were also used in Guadacanal by RNZA and New Guinea by RAA. Production was transferred to India and during WW2 798 carriages and 805 ordnances were manufactured there together with some 2.7 million HE rounds. A HEAT anti-tank shell was specifically developed and produced for use in Burma.

Ahh, found a good data point on Nigels Page.
http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/otherfp.htm

Anti-Aircraft Artillery

As the war progressed the air threat decreased and both heavy and light AA units were used in the field role. HAA batteries equipped with the 3.7-inch HAA gun had long range (18,600 yards at full charge), unrestricted top traverse and were typically handled as medium artillery, and often used for CB tasks. Their high rate of fire and time fuzes were an added bonus, the latter were particularly useful. In Italy statistics reveal that many HAA regiments fired only a few thousand rounds at air targets but perhaps 50 times as many at ground targets! Most of this fire was indirect although HAA units were not officially issued with the necessary fire control equipment until late 1944. A reduced charge was introduced for ground fire in order to reduce barrel wear.

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One problem was that AA guns were designed to fire short bursts at infrequent targets. However, in the field role, particularly 3.7-inch when firing as part of a fireplan, they were required to fire for periods of a few hours. This caused equipment failure and the guns got so hot that paint on the barrels blistered and on one occasion at least the barrels were visibly drooping. A second possible issue was that 3.7-inch HAA shells had been designed to produce quite large fragments to maximise damage to aircraft. This meant that a burst produced fewer and bigger fragments that needed to create battlefield casualties. Of course this didn't matter too much when neutralisation was required.

In the final months of the war in NW Europe HAA brigades were used as AGRAs in major fire plans.

[cbo]

Came across this in my files. It was posted by J.McGillivray on the old AFV-News forum back in March 2004:

I have done some more digging and have found more information about the use of the 3.7 in AA gun in the ground role. In particular I came across a copy of “A History of 2 CDN HAA Regt 1939 – 1945” which was published in Soesterberg, Holland in Aug. 1945.
By late in the war the 3.7 in AA gun had three types of ammunition, HE, Shrapnel and AP. They were equipped with telescopic sights, and the crews had training in both direct and in-direct ground fire.

“Hitherto the regiment had been concerned only with AA firing. By this time, however, the use of HAA units in the ground role had been considerably developed. The German 88 mm had been so employed to good advantage in the Spanish Civil war, and in Africa; the gunners with the 8th Army had also on occasion used their 3.7 guns against enemy columns and concentrations. The School of AA Artillery had produced the first drills for the 3.7 equipment in the ground role and these drills were taught to the Regiment by a visiting IG during October.” (1942)

“During the summer (1943), guns were modified by the addition of ‘Middle East’ sights – telescopes that permitted the more accurate engagements of tanks and close targets;…”

“Gun detachments practised for one day at Beachy Head anti-tank ranges on 27 Jan, (1944) with sad results to the ranges. 3.7” AP shot was not available, and plugged ammunition was used instead, on the theory that, with no fuzes, the HE rounds would not burst. As it was the gaines could not be removed, and shock of impact detonated a high proportion of rounds, practically destroying the very elaborate tank runs built by the Canadian School of Artillery.”

2 HAA Regt landed in France on the 6th of August, and their first shoot occurred in the early morning of 8th Aug. as part of the fire plan for Operation Totalize. Between 8 Aug. and 31 Dec. The 24 guns of 2HAA fired a total of 56,959 rds. Of this only 406 rds were fired in the AA role. By the end of April the Regiments ammunition expenditure reached 112,678 rds. The guns were often used in the counter battery role where they fired air bursts over German artillery, mortar and flak positions.

96 3.7” guns were used in the fire plan for Operation Veritable, which made them the third most numerous gun type after the 25 pdr (576) and the 5.5” (248). On only the pre-arranged Tasks they fired a total of 48,420 rds.

The history of 2HAA contains one bizarre reference to the planned use of AP shot as followers:

“There was once, during the stay at Dunkirk, the suggestion that two troops (E and A) should also take on AA duties; these troops deployed radar and command posts accordingly. The purpose was mainly to help the Bofors guns get on target, and it was suggested that one gun of each HAA troop would fire AP shot every ten seconds and then the Bofors guns could fire along the line of that tracer. To everyone’s great relief, this scheme was soon forgotten, and there quickly faded from mind the mental images of great lumps of shot crashing through the roofs of neighbouring command posts or crashing into friendly French villages. The AA role was left to the Bofors gunners alone,…”

The problem with the gun mount of the 3.7” gun was that when fired in the near horizontal position the whole gun could slide backwards and “…guns slewed badly out of line…”, especially if the ground was soft or muddy.

cbo