MP: Chlorolera is made of contagious and deadly!

[DonCorazon]

Incabulos, no, nobody does that. You can attack someone whenever you want if you don't have a NAP. In my case, I had a NAP and gave notice.

Anyway, I agree VPs are too low, but the line has been visible on the graph all game. The thing that has surprised me is how fast Shin has risen and how nobody has organized against him. In most games, a nation with a similar trajectory would have a rapid downfall as their neighbors organized against him. Here it just seems his rise and the low VP threshold is being lamented, but no action is being taken.

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

Incabulos, no, nobody does that. You can attack someone whenever you want if you don't have a NAP. In my case, I had a NAP and gave notice.

Anyway, I agree VPs are too low, but the line has been visible on the graph all game. The thing that has surprised me is how fast Shin has risen and how nobody has organized against him. In most games, a nation with a similar trajectory would have a rapid downfall as their neighbors organized against him. Here it just seems his rise and the low VP threshold is being lamented, but no action is being taken.

I live on the other side of the freaking world. :|

Jazzepi

[cleveland]

Machaka declares war on Shinuyama!

BillyWitchDoctor.com kindly request coordinates to the Shinuyaman citadel. And satellite imagery, if possible.

[Pelthin]

Speaking as one who has already been declared taken over by someone (I am MAN).

I got beat up by Ashdod, but am now holding my own. I havea NAP with Shin, so I would have 5 turns to build up a force to deal with him if need be.

Also my partner in crime has been very forthcoming with information to help with my war against, Ashdod, so I think before you all think that this game is all but won, sit back and give it a play and see what happens.

I know Man is not very impressive on the graphs, but I have land in front of me to take, once I get rid of those silly Giant leaders in my front yard, and do not plan to roll over.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

The thing that has surprised me is how fast Shin has risen and how nobody has organized against him. In most games, a nation with a similar trajectory would have a rapid downfall as their neighbors organized against him.

Well after I took Arco's capital, I was going to gear up and go after Shinuyama, actually.

Our original agreement was that I spare your nation, in exchange for military cooperation against the ogres.

At the last moment, as my NAP with Shinuyama expired, and I asked you where the heck your troops were, you stated that your initial thrust had failed, and that you wanted to back out of the war.

This was turn 18 IIRC.

< shrug > You managed to diplomatically keep me from annexing a second capital early in the game, by agreeing to a war against the frontrunner (Shinuyama), which you then backed out of, condemning Bandar to a game of turtling, which you then cut short by allying with our other proposed enemy, whilst complaining that no one is fighting against Shinuyama.

Blah blah blah, right?

[DonCorazon]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

Blah blah blah, right?

Perhaps another perspective would be useful:

Bandar rushed our capital. Never took it. Elephant vs. elephant. Bandar had more but ours were home garrison, friendly dominion and his would be enemy dominion and general low morale impacting both. Either elephants could turn on a dime (read bad DRN) We had researched up the Thaum ladder with an awake pretender and felt we would wipe out Bandar if our mages could survive long enough. I honestly wasnt't sure who would win. We felt a battle between us would be mutually destructive and seemed like a total gamble. If you lost you'd basically be out of the game. That is not how I like to play. I don't play in 50 games and just roll the dice and then go AI or quit in games where my gambles don't work out. I play till the end in every game. Even when it seems like I am going to lose, as in this game, I don't just quit or suggest its not worth the time to take my turns....

Anyhoo, I asked for a NAP and said we should focus on the leader -Shin. Bandar agreed. I avoided signing a NAP with Shin and attacked what had been 2 undefended provinces. Apparently, Shin somehow learned of my attack and moved troops in. I lost both fights b/c his PD and troops skyrocketed in between turns (apparently there was a leak in someone's embassy or the Admiral has my apartment bugged). At that point, I didn't have much to attack with but still refused Shin's offer to both sign a NAP and give me land, as this would violate the spirit of my agreement with Bandar. Granted I couldn't do much offensively til I re-built my forces. Nevertheless, I can say Arcos attacked 2 Shin provinces this game, 2 more than Bandar ever did. Bandar then agreed to Shin's offer to a NAP. After that Arcos signed a NAP with Shin.

We had no more dealings with Bandar for many turns. Then, Arcos cancelled our NAP with Bandar. No big deal in our minds since all nations must fight one another at some point and all NAPs must come to an end.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

I don't play in 50 games and just roll the dice and then go AI or quit in games where my gambles don't work out. I play till the end in every game. Even when it seems like I am going to lose, as in this game, I don't just quit or suggest its not worth the time to take my turns....

This is where it gets fun.

I like suggesting things. There is -usually- a thinly or heavily veiled reason for me to say something, but often my point in expressing myself has little to do with being understood (seems a lost cause), rather than creating an effect (cause-effect, much more reliable than actual understanding).

Now, you can imply things about my character as a player, and that's great, but it just proves that you don't know. You see, I play to the end in every game as well. I have never passed a failing position to a sub as "still competitive", I have never gone AI prematurely, and I've never stopped submitting turns simply because a position begins to look hopeless. I'm actually only starting to become comfortable, in this game, taking the big risks when the signs are unfavorable, and I want to roll the dice. You make it sound as if you equate gambling, with a tendency to quit, or to abandon an unfavorable position. I find it ironic that when I turtled up with Gath in Kingmaker because I had no attractive options, you commented you didn't know how people could play the game without finding a fight, then when I rush you here, you complain to me how you keep getting rushed, and you just want to play out the game. And for clarification, I have gone AI exactly twice in MP games here, the first was Gath in Kingmaker, and I was down to my last 2 castles, with no units after my last blaze of glory. The other was World in Crisis, where I likewise had made a last desperate series of attacks against the *3* people attacking me, and only went AI when I did, because a player in a much stronger position in the game got frustrated about a stale, and wanted out - we couldn't find another sub so I offered to swap out, for the good of the game.

At any rate, I know full well about your confidence as far as our initial clash was concerned. The thing was, you were cut off from recruitment options, with no/little income (sieged capital), while I was prepared to send reinforcements every turn, with a very strong income, and national troops streaming in at a rate that I felt very much outweighed the potential power gains from your continued research. In any case, I'm not sure how you could argue with my assertion that I would be far happier with the situation had it played out as a 1v1 then on my terms, rather than a 1v2 against my vassal neighbor and his newfound double-dealing ally.

You see, what you called an "Alliance" (Star Elephant Alliance ring a bell? Your term, not mine), I considered vassalage. That's what happens when a nation is about to crumble under another, and out of fear of the end, begs for mercy, they become a vassal. Big mistake on my part, I suppose, to think that you might be grateful that I responded favorably to your plea for survival, and would continue to plan and work with me to make both our nations stronger.

[DonCorazon]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

You see, what you called an "Alliance", I considered vassalage.

And therein lies the problem with our communication. I am not sure how alliance equates to vassalage I certainly never have in this or any other game said I'd be someone's vassal. My goal is to protect the good people of Arcos and see that my pretender ascends or dies trying. In my admittedly spotty mind, alliance just meant we would both attack the same foe. I complied and attacked but the "alliance" ended in my mind when we signed a NAP with Shin . After that all we had was a NAP with each other which had to end sometime. I have complied with it, right?

Going back to the moment where you had me besieged and I asked for a NAP - you didn't know how close my reinforcements were, nor that I had nice indie mages in addition to my capital mages, nor what my research level was, so your claims that I was "begging for mercy" are based on incomplete information. I asked for a NAP because, for the reasons described above, I thought I had a decent chance of winning back my besieged capital, but that even winning it would be a big setback. I didn't want to risk a single mage, and who knows what can happen on a battlefield with a bunch of elephants. I told you as much and you agreed to a NAP. Its not like I used the Jedi mind trick on you. How that turned into me being your vassal, I have no idea. I did not feel "grateful for your mercy" as you describe it but rather was annoyed that you thought it was a good idea to elephant rush another elephant nation when there were bountiful indie provinces all around. Part of the reason you were able to siege the capital was it seemed like such a bad idea, I thought you had attacked the adjacent province mistakenly and so I did not move in reinforcements. My stupidity there. And I am not saying your plan would not have worked - your elephants might have stormed through my sparse defenses and wiped me out - it might have been brilliant. I didn't want to take a chance that it was and so asked for a NAP.

And if I misinterpreted you on quitting, then my apologies but a few posts up you said "sort of makes me not want to bother making up a turn at this point.." and "I'd rather just have it over, and be able to start a similar scenario on the same map perhaps." That sounded to me like you wanted to give up.

Sorry if this all left a bitter taste - you alluded to being stabbed in the kidneys, etc. and I certainly don't want to make anyone feel like that. For me its just a game and fun. Having someone end a NAP or attack unexpectedly can be rough, but its part of the game. It knocked me out of the KM race when Eriu surprise attacked me but I played on in good humor with Cleveland, the evil Sidhe mastermind.

Ok, someone please post something funny to pull this one out of the mud...

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

And if I misinterpreted you on quitting, then my apologies but a few posts up you said "sort of makes me not want to bother making up a turn at this point.." and "I'd rather just have it over, and be able to start a similar scenario on the same map perhaps." That sounded to me like you wanted to give up.

And I meant those things. It makes me not want to bother. And I would rather it was just over. But once I was diplomatically blocked in as Gath in Kingmaker, for example, I played at least 20 turns, just making myself as strong as possible, waiting for the inevitable attack. I don't think I even let the nation stale once, out of respect for the others playing (even to the extent that while I built up to hurt whoever attacked me, I wasn't just going to suicide against a neighbor I had no chance against, I was going to let them come to me).


I just find this current situation, and your rationale to be incredibly ironic. But again, the whole thing really is somewhat moot - Shinuyama will be on victory's doorstep before Bandar has fully exited, so I think in light of the VP conditions, and your own lamentation that people are not attacking Shinuyama, I'm just surprised that your solution is to attack Bandar, rather than to brooch the subject of war with Shin again.

In the scope of the game's scenario itself, and your ability to impact it, just take a moment to think, of Bandar's neighbors, who has always shown them respect, and who has betrayed their trust? If you think on that long enough, you may soon realize that your actions have in fact only hastened the subjugation and enslavement of your people. At least my people are going to be placed on a Reservation, maybe we'll build some casinos to garner a disproportionate amount of wealth for our subdued populace. Your people will likely just become food, or slaves.

[Pelthin]

Well I must say this is a very fun game. I love the banter on the forums and the general amount of mayhem in game.

Frankly, I have been getting my butt kicked as Man, but I love this nation. It has a little of everything, and I just have to balance my arrows with some power.

Hopefully the war rages on and we can see who will reign supreme.

Okay I stole that last line from Iron Chef.