Fomoria - Where is your God now? (AKA - The Other Giant Meat)

[DonCorazon]

Just a word of warning: I'm in an MP game now leading in provinces, probably around 40, with a non-astral nation that I am playing for the first time and I went with the conventional strategy/pretender for this specific nation that left me with no access to S. From the start of the game, I have searched extensively with what paths I have, hired Dagan the S1 sage for probably around 7 Arcane Probings so far, and I have yet to find a single recruitable Astral caster - Lizard Shaman or otherwise - and my S income from sites I have found with my non-S casters is a whopping +2. Basically my late game chances are slim to none, with no access to amulets of anti-magic, no protection against mind hunts, no RoW/RoS to get those often critical boosts that help bootstrap other key magic paths, etc. Now this might be an outlier and truly bad luck (though I even have luck scales), but I would never play this nation like this again.

I think a national strategy should prepare you for the endgame, not rely on luck or indies to cover a nation's weakness. I think magical diversity is critical as there are so many permutations of who you might end up fighting in the endgame of a competitive MP game, you had better be prepared for anything.

Also, interesting that a big W bless is chosen here. I would have thought an E bless would have been optimal for enhanced evocatory devastation and more late game usage. I'd think having at least E4 would be almost mandatory as otherwise you are really lacking in 2 critical paths. That seems like really rolling the dice on your strategy.

[pyg]

Nice guide! Thanks for doing this.

In SP I usually take a E9/10 bless and sometimes N. Even with an E10 bless unmarked will still accumulate fatigue. Anyway I was wondering how you fight battles w/unmarked when you are vastly outnumbered or will otherwise have a long battle? Isn't the success of the W9 bless dependent on short battles where the numbers are more evenly matched? I admit that I have never tried the W9 bless (but will soon!) so I don't have a context of experience, just conjecture. This question also applies to Kings as thugs although you can equip gear on King.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

Just a word of warning: I'm in an MP game now leading in provinces, probably around 40, with a non-astral nation that I am playing for the first time and I went with the conventional strategy/pretender for this specific nation that left me with no access to S. From the start of the game, I have searched extensively with what paths I have, hired Dagan the S1 sage for probably around 7 Arcane Probings so far, and I have yet to find a single recruitable Astral caster - Lizard Shaman or otherwise ...

One word - Spectres. They will boost any Death nation into Astral, with other types just contributing to research or raiding enemies.

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

Also, interesting that a big W bless is chosen here. I would have thought an E bless would have been optimal for enhanced evocatory devastation and more late game usage. I'd think having at least E4 would be almost mandatory as otherwise you are really lacking in 2 critical paths. That seems like really rolling the dice on your strategy.

He got E4. But I agree that high Earth bless is VERY good for any nation with large sacred casters. High Water is also very good, though. Personally, I'd prefer Earth, but Morrigans... I wonder whether it's possible to get both without awful scales. Maybe if we take different chassis and drop Nature...

About Nemedians vs Morrigans - yes, Nemedians are good by themselves - but Jim mentioned Winged Boots - which means Flying Squad...

Though, of course, I'm theoretical here: my closest aquintance with Fomoria was when I rushed them in my 2nd MP and they crumbled - they used Fomorians of various ilks, too and by the time they started to use Nemedians the only thing they retained was their capital...

[DonCorazon]

Originally Posted by Wrana

One word - Spectres. They will boost any Death nation into Astral, with other types just contributing to research or raiding enemies.

Meh, in theory yes, but:

1. At Conj 6 and D3, Spectres can take a while to get - I usually don't go so far down the Conj path til I have a number of other paths researched. Usually find the need for combat spells 1st (I like to exercise my mages), site searching, then Const for boosters to be able to make use of Conj. So by the time you get them it can be pretty late to be trying to fire up a decent S economy.

2. In line with that, some of the coolest sites I find are Astral and I'd rather get them early on as that will compound your leads in gems and research.

3. At 20D, I don't find Spectres especially cost effective. Lot of valuable death gems to summon them, not all will be Astral, then takes a while to site search with them, etc. Plus they won't get you any Astral boosters - you are still stuck without access to RoS and ROW.

I am not saying I won't summon them, mostly they are useful to intimidate by feebleminding unsuspecting Mind Hunters but I don't find them to be as simple as a solution as portrayed.

And, not relevant to this thread, but I was referring to playing Pan with a Gorgon, and Death magic is not so easy for them, again luck is a factor. In my case, I have a single D1 Pan out of # Pans. Wtf! Its been a pretty unlucky game w/r to sites/randoms, but it happens and I have had other games where I have been amazingly lucky. You never know but as I play more I'd rather minimize dependence on good luck.

Originally Posted by Wrana

He got E4.

I read it as mainly W9 bless (a minor E bless appears in 1 out of 3 builds). W9 feels good when you see things getting motored down but is only beneficial when you use sacreds to fight whereas an E9 bless is useful in battle and magery. Fomoria seems to have such powerful combat mages with Death and Air, getting some reinvigoration / protection on them seems like it would be pretty effective. I admit I haven't messed around with Morrigans though and that sounds fun...

But the other consideration I had was making sure your nation has access to E magic and being able to cast / forge some of the big E ticket items later on. A pure W bless leaves you without easy / near-term access to E or S. That would scare me.

[JimMorrison]

Sneaky Don.

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

1. At Conj 6 and D3, Spectres can take a while to get - I usually don't go so far down the Conj path til I have a number of other paths researched. Usually find the need for combat spells 1st (I like to exercise my mages), site searching, then Const for boosters to be able to make use of Conj. So by the time you get them it can be pretty late to be trying to fire up a decent S economy.

Conj is one of your most vital tertiary Research objectives. Conj6 is certainly no stretch for early-mid or mid-mid game. As Fomoria, the only things you really need from Astral are your quintessential Luck Item™ and Antimagic Ammy. And only some of your Kings need the Ammy, your casting Kings should all have Rainbow Armor on, and not be the focus of enemy mages, so you only need one big angry guy in front to soak the Astral spam, and then any Kings out on their own need one. Mostly you just want as many Luck Pendants as you can get your hands on.

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

2. In line with that, some of the coolest sites I find are Astral and I'd rather get them early on as that will compound your leads in gems and research.

There are excellent Astral sites with recruitables. But this is where arguing about Astral breaks down. You lose all of the bite of your giants if you do not have an Imprisoned pretender, to get the Bless you need without -3/all scales. So Astral on your pretender isn't going to expedite things, and so this is why my suggestion was to suck it up, and take fringe options like the Specter as your last resort, if nothing else pans out. You absolutely want your Astral searching ASAP, but remember, the "P" stands for "Possible", not "You Can If You Are Willing To Sacrifice Everything Else".

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

3. At 20D, I don't find Spectres especially cost effective. Lot of valuable death gems to summon them, not all will be Astral, then takes a while to site search with them, etc. Plus they won't get you any Astral boosters - you are still stuck without access to RoS and ROW.

Well they aren't "particularly" cost effective, sure. But in a pinch, they will do the job - and seriously, you are in no great need of a RoW as Fomoria. Certainly not every nation in the game has to insure access to high level Astral, and this is a sterling example, IMO.

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

I read it as mainly W9 bless (a minor E bless appears in 1 out of 3 builds). W9 feels good when you see things getting motored down but is only beneficial when you use sacreds to fight whereas an E9 bless is useful in battle and magery. Fomoria seems to have such powerful combat mages with Death and Air, getting some reinvigoration / protection on them seems like it would be pretty effective. I admit I haven't messed around with Morrigans though and that sounds fun...

But the other consideration I had was making sure your nation has access to E magic and being able to cast / forge some of the big E ticket items later on. A pure W bless leaves you without easy / near-term access to E or S. That would scare me.

Again, you really do not -need- those things on the scale that you are talking about. You -need- minor access to Astral, and the rest really is just gravy. If you can allow yourself to focus on the overt strengths (and some hidden strengths) of Fomoria, without getting too caught up trying to shore up their weaknesses, you will do very well.

[Tolkien]

I'll have to look into Fomoria. The Morrigans sound practically imba.

[Agema]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

1. At Conj 6 and D3, Spectres can take a while to get - I usually don't go so far down the Conj path til I have a number of other paths researched. Usually find the need for combat spells 1st (I like to exercise my mages), site searching, then Const for boosters to be able to make use of Conj. So by the time you get them it can be pretty late to be trying to fire up a decent S economy.

...

Send out priests early searching for holy sites. If you've got a good mage priest even better, as they can search for their magic paths too. Holy sites are rare (under 1 in 10 provinces) but in my experience almost always give you at least one astral pearl income. They can hugely reduce the costs you might otherwise incur from having to alchemise other gems.

[Gokufan1988]

Originally Posted by Agema

Send out priests early searching for holy sites. If you've got a good mage priest even better, as they can search for their magic paths too. Holy sites are rare (under 1 in 10 provinces) but in my experience almost always give you at least one astral pearl income. They can hugely reduce the costs you might otherwise incur from having to alchemise other gems.

This works out well for Fomoria because their only non-priest mage is the Nemedian Sorceress who you'll probably never buy since she is cap only and competing with Fomorian Kings and Nemedian Champions.