Vampires - you should be afraid of the night

Baalz · #1 February 25th, 2009, 06:47 PM

Well, I think that this weakness is being overplayed here. Yes, there are effective counters. Yes, very powerful end game magic can not only neutralize them but give them to your enemy if he invests enough resources and effort. Name me one unit that is not the case for. The fact of the matter is that I forced my opponent to research up to level 9 in a school he may not have otherwise wanted (not much point in going up Thau unless you've got strong astral or death), summon/empower/outfit someone capable of casting undead mastery then spent the time setting up an ambush for me....meanwhile I've got no other significant undead troops to use UM on and have been benefiting from my colony the whole game up until this level of counters are available. It's probably also pointless to even bother bloodhunting in the first case because somebody could always just wish for armageddon a couple times! At the point you're worried about penetration boosted level 9 spells surprising you you're past the point any one thing can be expected to be effective by itself most of the time. Then again, you're also looking at army of lead + will of the fates buffed vampires by that time, which is a whole other ball of wax.

WraithLord · #2 February 26th, 2009, 11:48 AM

The points you and Trumanator raise make sense.

I want to clarify a few things.
- The analogy to a 1000 HP critter didn't sit well with me. I kept thinking RoS and earthquake etc. I mean 3XRoS would not even scratch 1K hp critter but would waste the vamps.

- The counter warefare is endless. Army of lead would meet wrathful skies in end game (I did mention storm before, right?).

- Which brings me to trying and clarify my point. I specifically said the strat. you present is solid. I still think so, I just don't see it as being the corner stone of a game winning strategy b/c of the readily available counters to it. Now I know this last statement is generically true. And that is what I aimed (albeit poorly) to convey: you have to have more than one trick up your sleeve if you want to win. And IMHO better an offensive trick than a turtling one. I guess ultimately it falls down to personal preference. I like to attack and investing in a purely defensive unit is something I will usually try to avoid. This is less true for the lords since they have a broader range of uses.

Oh and all that doesn't change my opinion that ethereality should be returned to the vamps. I don't see them as bees in a hive, I guess they'll find the analogy insulting

Well at least if they are anything like the fear inspiring critters presented in literature and movies.

KissBlade · #3 February 26th, 2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz

Well, I think that this weakness is being overplayed here. Yes, there are effective counters. Yes, very powerful end game magic can not only neutralize them but give them to your enemy if he invests enough resources and effort. Name me one unit that is not the case for. The fact of the matter is that I forced my opponent to research up to level 9 in a school he may not have otherwise wanted (not much point in going up Thau unless you've got strong astral or death), summon/empower/outfit someone capable of casting undead mastery then spent the time setting up an ambush for me....meanwhile I've got no other significant undead troops to use UM on and have been benefiting from my colony the whole game up until this level of counters are available. It's probably also pointless to even bother bloodhunting in the first case because somebody could always just wish for armageddon a couple times! At the point you're worried about penetration boosted level 9 spells surprising you you're past the point any one thing can be expected to be effective by itself most of the time. Then again, you're also looking at army of lead + will of the fates buffed vampires by that time, which is a whole other ball of wax.

But on the other hand, you've also gave your vampires those same very powerful magic backing (if not more so!). Even assuming, your opponent doesn't field high end magic. If you attack into a squad that can fire off two- three earthquakes, it's pretty much doom and gloom for you. Not to mention readily available priests if you don't boost the MR on those vampires. I mean, you can only play devil's advocate for so many units. =) Let's face it, there are a lot of subpar troops in dom III. I mean, if you buff up 300-400 markatas, you can make it threatening.

rdonj · #4 February 26th, 2009, 04:52 PM

400 markatas is 2000 gold (not including the 10 commanders and mages you need to lead them)... they also have upkeep and aren't nearly as maneuverable as vampires. Plus the first time someone casts earthquake that's 2k gold down the drain. I'm not sure 15mr is that bad either, sure they'll take damage from banishments but it's not going to be that crippling.

Not saying vampires are a be all end all, but they certainly do have their uses.

KissBlade · #5 February 26th, 2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdonj

400 markatas is 2000 gold (not including the 10 commanders and mages you need to lead them)... they also have upkeep and aren't nearly as maneuverable as vampires. Plus the first time someone casts earthquake that's 2k gold down the drain. I'm not sure 15mr is that bad either, sure they'll take damage from banishments but it's not going to be that crippling.

Not saying vampires are a be all end all, but they certainly do have their uses.

Is this in response to my point being that markatas suck or did reading comp not work here? 15 mr isn't bad but it isn't good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz

Again, how many units that are midline summons are cool to stick it out against 3 earthquakes? ...you can certainly make them effective in some situations, which is the point of this guide and all you can ask of any unit.

Any units with mediocre protection ...? Vine Ogres, Devils, Bane Lords or all those summons everyone else uses ...

My point was that you can make /any/ units useful in /some/ situations with the buffs and battle magic you mentioned. Just because I Fog WArrior/Will of Fates/Army of Lead/strength of giants/weapons of sharp etc etc my entire army of militias means I'm going to start buiding militias now.