Look I do not want to give the wrong impression here. I do not consider EA Atlantis the most powerful nation ever, but I do also not consider it hopeless. I am all for critique of it - it is often a good opportunity to learn - but it needs to be reasonable.
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Originally Posted by Zeldor
I agree pretty much on everything with Micah. I am playing both EA and MA Atlantis now, so I can make some comments:
General:
- resource-heavy uw nations just don't work, with 10 admin forts, 20 admin cap you can recruit ****, and you are not guaranteed 4-5 uw neighbours like land nations get
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EA Atlantis is certainly not resource heavy. Decently cheap troops requiring all of 1 resource with two or three attacks (including a magic one if you need it) makes it pretty much a poster nation for sloth 3.
As an aside, land nations are not guaranteed 4-5 neighbours, as far as I know. I have certainly played plenty of games where that was not the case. A lot of maps people are using probably use that as a start condition, but presumably you could demand exactly the same for water starts.
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- W on SC/thug is really bad path to have, unless you can get lots of reinvig on your gear and don't put really heavy gear, otherwise no quicken self for you
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There are other spells than quicken self that require only water magic - I have used e.g. breath of winter to great effect. Regardless, Atlantis does have access to reinvigoration.
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EA Atlantis:
- no N, no free forts, no reinvig gear for BKs, no quicken self for them
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Say what?
All Basalt Kings can cast summon earthpower and without even the slightest shred of diversification, Atlantis can produce girdles of might. That is 7 reinvigoration right there on a 3 encumbrance unit.
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- you need pretender to get starshine caps
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Or just cough up 30 perls for an empowerment (to W2E1S2) if you cannot trade for any kind of S-booster. From there on the mages of the deep can keep on forging coins and caps without any further empowerment.
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- good paths for some forging [brands, hammers, golden shields for fear+awe on BKs]
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I also like staffs of corrosion. The mages can quicken themselves and then proceed to fire off two acid bolts each turn. (It sometimes happens that I have a mage present that has a path combination that is not that well suited to the battle at hand; a staff makes them into decent artillery.)
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- H3 priests fighting for recruitment with BKs
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Yes, but since Atlantis is not a bless nation, there is not that great a need for H3s. If you happen to have some minor bless for your kings, your ordinary priests can handle the blessing just fine.
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- totally useless units, the more expensive the worse they are
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They are hardly useless.
Even apart from the obvious hyperbole in the statement, I have a hard time seeing it. The various versions of deep atlanteans certainly have weaknesses, but they also have strengths. Darkvision and elemental resistances have their uses and their offensive power is absolutely top-notch for the price. Due to at best average defence and protection they tend to die a lot, but that is quite all-right as they are easily replaceable and give as good as they get.
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- crap research [really, just because you have F on mages to research it does not mean you are research powerhouse, you will need to use all F on lanterns to just catch with middle of the pack]
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Atlantis does not have good research, but it is not a catastrophy in my opinion. Mages are expensive, but not particularly slow.
The expensive mages are at least in part mitigated by the constitution of atlantean troops. You can levy a lot of them very quickly, so you can save quite a bit on upkeep.
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- Kings of the Deep are no thugs at all, but are more expensive than most of them
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With a bit of gear, they can be used as thugs, but I tend to use them more as battle mages, summoners and forgers. What they are good at depends on what paths they have, but they can all be used for cold spam. The ones with a astral pick bears special mention as they can access a lot of the more demanding spells through communions. If you absolutely need to get one off in the first round you can always forge a matrix.
Quite.
Personally, I tend to take some nature on the pretender and then go as far into S as is feasible through clams via Naiads (this also nets me a late entrance into air). D and B are pretty much just viable if I find useful sites or commanders.
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- nothing to fight Oceania early on
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Oceania is certainly a lot better under water, but that is as it should be. Oceania does not have anything on Atlantis above the waves, so having them equal beneath them would be rather imbalanced.
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- nothing to fight R'lyeh early on [8 MR elite troops? haha, you'd also want more MR on BKs before sending them alone agaisnt all that nasty stuff, so you'd want starshine or rainbow on top of AmA]
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I really do not understand what your hang-up is with the living pillars. Why try to use them in a situation they are clearly not suitable for? It just does not make any sense.
While MR 10 troops are not ideal in fighting R'lyeh, they do work as long as you consider what the mind blasters like to target. Mixing in high-hp troops will make it possible to include numerous of the cheap MR 8 deep ones for cheap offensive punch. You will lose some, but again, they are easily replaced.
EA R'lyeh differs markedly from LA in that it has to actually pay for its chaff. And it is still rather bad. Counting on retreating and hiding behind PD is a losing proposition as the concentration of blasters (which is what R'lyeh has going for it) will go down and the PD itself pretty much explodes when coming in contact with Atlantis' offensively minded units.
Understand that I am not saying that Atlantis is horribly more powerful than R'lyeh under the waves. Indeed, it is probably at a slight disadvantage. However, it is a lot closer than the comparison to Oceania and R'lyeh certainly fares no better than the other on land.
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Atlantis cannot and shouldn't win any uw wars assuming Oceania/R'lyeh are played by competent players.
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I cannot agree.
Of course, Atlantis has to use what it has and not just pine for what it lacks. You should always keep in mind that you are the only fully amphibious nation in the age. Just as you use the relative safety of the water when attacking land nations, you should use the relative safety of land provinces when attacking your under water rivals. Carving out a big land empire early is probably not a good idea - you will be a too juicy target for real land nations - but a couple of coastal provinces is fine. Taking them from you will generally be more trouble than it is worth as it will inevitable result in you raiding them from your safe under water position.
This strategical advantage is huge.
@P3D: I agree with the part about slow expansion and need for an SC god. I do think that it is affordable, though. I usually go for a dom 10 Dagon with some earth and nature. This allows me to research straight up the conjuration school for Voice of Tiamat and pick up reinvigoration and regeneration on the way. This also lets me summon Naiads and get into nature in a big way as well as providing a rather slow but effective development of astral through clams, if nothing else.
Atlantis needs high order, but very little resources and taking cold 3 has a couple of advantages: you do not suffer financially under the waves and while you have cold resistant troops your under water rivals do not. Especially Oceania has quite a lot of high encumbrance troops and they are not happy with the extra encumbrance - it is not much, but every bit helps.
Before mid- to late-game craziness sets in, you should have won (or lost) the sea, so from there on you can leverage yourself to further victories through superior gem income.
Re: Worst Nations in Each Era
Hybrid Mode
