Scouting/Recon

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by c_of_red

In the original SP, Vehicles of the class scout DID get a searching bonus.
They searched at the same percentage as Infantry instead of as vehicles.
I don't know if that was changed.

Here is the source of the confusion. WinSPWW2/WinSPMBT, scouts have no extra spotting ability or ability to stay hidden (aside from that inherit with being a size 0 unit). In SPWaW, a similar competitive product, recon units do receive a 25% spotting bonus. Since many people play both games, a certain degree of confusion occurs.

While I don't know all the details, it seems that the development teams for both the WinSP games and the SPWaW game originally worked for one single company. That company was responsible for the original DOS version of the game. Somewhere along the line, creative differences or something along those lines created a split and two independent competitive businesses. Don and Andy know more about it than I do. The long and short of it is with two similar games, sometimes the line blurs a bit and it is difficult to remember which game does what when it comes to the little details.

[Imp]

Understand all your points on game mechanics as I say everyone to his own.
Myself I like to know what does what & for complex stuff which this game is not some detail. As its mainly a tactical than rule driven game discovering how to do the stuff is half the fun. I could have a chart that says a tank with FC/RF XX etc will have a hit chance of approximatly XX but its more fun to fudge it. Still forget & take a silly shot but generally just do what seems to work. For instance on the occasions I turn a units range down normally use 3 not because I knew there was a step there but because it seemed to work. Now I know why & in fact had probably figured it out without realising.

C of Red my quota is full at present but we can certainly have a bash once one ends.

[c_of_red]

Originally Posted by RERomine

Here is the source of the confusion. WinSPWW2/WinSPMBT, scouts have no extra spotting ability or ability to stay hidden (aside from that inherit with being a size 0 unit). In SPWaW, a similar competitive product, recon units do receive a 25% spotting bonus. Since many people play both games, a certain degree of confusion occurs.

While I don't know all the details, it seems that the development teams for both the WinSP games and the SPWaW game originally worked for one single company. That company was responsible for the original DOS version of the game. Somewhere along the line, creative differences or something along those lines created a split and two independent competitive businesses. Don and Andy know more about it than I do. The long and short of it is with two similar games, sometimes the line blurs a bit and it is difficult to remember which game does what when it comes to the little details.

So you are saying that scout VEHICLES are treated as ordinary vehicles in the Cammo games? In effect, there is no unit class of 'scout' in the Cammo group versions of SP. Why is that? After all, the three most important things in land warfare are recon, recon and recon.

[Imp]

So you are saying that scout VEHICLES are treated as ordinary vehicles in the Cammo games? In effect, there is no unit class of 'scout' in the Cammo group versions of SP. Why is that? After all, the three most important things in land warfare are recon, recon and recon.

I would say its because of the way the vehicle is used that makes it scout, going slowly & observing. They get very marginal boosts to represent dedicated scouts are probably above average soldiers but thats it. How exactly does an identical vehicle say a jeep all of a sudden gain the ability to see better because its a scout than the standard one?
Dare I say you have only just realised so you must have thought they were doing okay but in fact its because you were using them in a scout role that you percieved they could see better.

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by c_of_red

So you are saying that scout VEHICLES are treated as ordinary vehicles in the Cammo games? In effect, there is no unit class of 'scout' in the Cammo group versions of SP. Why is that? After all, the three most important things in land warfare are recon, recon and recon.

I can't answer the why part. It's just how they opted to set it up, I guess. All I know for sure is that is how it works. As Imp pointed out, they do come with a bit more experience so they would spot slightly better than the average size 0 unit but in the Cammo games, that's about it. The vehicle is nothing more than a quicker way to get to their scouting location. It would be nice to drive you jeep where you want to go and just bail out and take up a position on foot. Unfortunately, that doesn't work.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by RERomine

While I don't know all the details, it seems that the development teams for both the WinSP games and the SPWaW game originally worked for one single company. That company was responsible for the original DOS version of the game. Somewhere along the line, creative differences or something along those lines created a split and two independent competitive businesses. Don and Andy know more about it than I do. The long and short of it is with two similar games, sometimes the line blurs a bit and it is difficult to remember which game does what when it comes to the little details.

What at first was called SP2WW2 started development in January 1998 and was released early December later that year. We started working in direct co-operation with what was then known as "TGN" around the end of October 1998 "SPCAMO" resumed working independently at the time WaW started development in the summer of 1999 with WaW version 1 being released in 2000. Who worked on our version is detailed in the Game Guide. Anyone really interested in who worked on both can check the WaW GG . You could call it "creative differences". I have other terms but that is all in the past now and I have no interest in getting into it again. And yes, with two similar games and thousands of people playing both, there will be some confusion about some things.

I will deal with the "scout" question when I have more time but I will say now that the "scout vehicle" class wasn't even defined in the original SP2 code so any "magical qualities" anyone thinks it had are mythical. YES there was a "Scout Vehicle" in the game but all the code knew about was it's name.

Don

[c_of_red]

Imp, as we say in America, "Your mileage may vary". That comes from the EPA estimate on the Monroney sticker of a new vehicle.
I can't think of anything in SP that works every time, all the time.
So which technique you use varies from situation to situation. Matching technique to situation is a key to success in SP.
So obviously, the more techniques you have in your tool box, the better your chance of having the right tool for the job. Experience is the best teacher for knowing which tool fits best with which job.
Throw in some terrain, weather (the rain, snow and wind kind), an uncooperative opponent and it's gets interesting.
Speaking of which, I'm down to 247 slots. They are going, although not as fast as they could. Get your's now and avoid the end of summer rush.

[Skirmisher]

Now that would be some kinda commitment! 250 games going all at once.

I have a one turn per week PBEM going on, and I'm preparing a map for another one.

[c_of_red]

Jeeps, like armored cars, scout cars, etc have crews. I assume that the crew of a scout vehicle has been trained on observations techniques and has practiced those techniques until they are better at them then the average GI.
Sort of like why in the game a crew has to remount it's own vehicle, or why a rifle squad cannot grab the Sagger left laying on the ground after it's crew got mowed down several turns ago.
Scouting is a skill set, an MOS, 19D according to this;
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/19d.htm

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by c_of_red

Jeeps, like armored cars, scout cars, etc have crews. I assume that the crew of a scout vehicle has been trained on observations techniques and has practiced those techniques until they are better at them then the average GI.
Sort of like why in the game a crew has to remount it's own vehicle, or why a rifle squad cannot grab the Sagger left laying on the ground after it's crew got mowed down several turns ago.
Scouting is a skill set, an MOS, 19D according to this;
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/19d.htm

My last unit was 2/12 Cav, so I'm familiar with what they do. The basic question comes down to simply spotting opposing forces. An enemy force moving in traveling, traveling overwatch, bounding overwatch formations, etc., isn't any more likely to be spotted by a scout than by an average joe. Identifying what has been spotted is more in tune with the training, but that item is rendered moot within the game. If you see it, you know what it is.

Training is also more in tune with avoiding being spotted while scouting. In the game, it's up to the code and how the player moves the unit. You might have an argument here that scouts should be more difficult to spot, but leg scouts are already size 0.

And there are a whole host of other aspects of scout training that don't have anything to do with looking for the enemy. An example would be evaluating routes for heavier assets following behind. It wouldn't do well to have an M1A2 come up to a bridge that wasn't able to handle it's weight. Even that aspect is moot in the game. All bridges handle all tanks. In game terms, what is really left that makes a scout different than regular units?

If you want details on what scouts do, at least in the US Army, here is are links to FM 7-92 and FM 17-98:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...001/index.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-98/index.html

Nothing classified in these or they wouldn't be on the internet.