Tip: Template for reducing late game MM hell

[Squirrelloid]

well, building forts mostly allows recruiting of national units and pooling resources. The cost of the castle relative to the gold boost is so low as to be unnoticeable, basically.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

well, building forts mostly allows recruiting of national units and pooling resources. The cost of the castle relative to the gold boost is so low as to be unnoticeable, basically.

True in most cases, and in fact I personally DON'T build forts to increase gold income, but it is a form of Exploit that can potentially increase your gold revenues by up to 25%. The main reason it isn't done is not because the gold increase is negligible but because fort costs are so high relative to per-province income, in a normal-settings game.

I'm AFB, but IIRC building a fort gives you (baseIncome*admin/200) extra gold per turn, so you need to hold a province for (200*fortCost/(baseIncome*admin)) turns in order to show a positive cash flow. Depending on the province that may or may not be worth bothering with. From memory, here's some examples:

130 gold province, Tel City (Admin 40, 1400 gold): +26 gold. You need to hold the city for 54 turns to show a net profit.

390 gold province, Tel City (Admin 40, 1400 gold): +78 gold. You need to hold it for 18 turns to show a profit.

130 gold province, Hill Fort (Admin 20, 800 gold): +13 gold, 61 turns.

390 gold province, Hill Fort (Admin 20, 800 gold): +39 gold, 21 turns.

A 21-turn payback isn't short, but it's in line with the payback times for many buildings in other 4X games like MoM--although of course those games may go on for hundreds of turns and Dom3 usually caps out in the 80s.

Playing on smaller but richer maps (x3 or x4 and high gems) is one way of reducing micro, by effectively consolidating provinces into larger and richer metaprovinces. It tends to emphasize normal armies slightly more over summons/thugs, and it also makes fort-building a strategic option for economic development.

None of this changes the fact that Exploit plays much less of a role in Dom3 than in most 4X games--I'd actually submit that Dom3 isn't really a 4X game at all. It's mostly 2X, Expand and Exterminate, although research plays a big role and the Exterminate phase is unusually rich because of all the unit/spell variety.

-Max

[Benjamin]

I'm so pleased at this thread. I had just posted at QT3 about thinking of giving dominions another go, but how much I hated the MM, especially from gem gens. I thinks to myself, why don't I go over and see what's going on at official dominions 3 forums, and I find this thread. I'm so pleased.

Anyhow:

1)I'll be happy to see gem gens go. Mechanics that drive players to be tedious to win stink, and an overwhelming late game gem income is bad gameplay even without tedium.

2)A mod removing gem gens does or does not currently exist? I see people in the threads recalling games without gem gens, was that simply an honor based ban?

3)If push comes to shove, it's really the fever fetish I hate.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

2)A mod removing gem gens does or does not currently exist? I see people in the threads recalling games without gem gens, was that simply an honor based ban?

You can find the unique gem gen mod here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=699040

And as mentioned it will be integrated in CB 1.6.

[Benjamin]

Making gem gens "discount ignoring" like contracts/lifelong protection might also be a good compromise position. Or finagling required paths.

[Illuminated One]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Let me see if I'm understanding your point correctly: 4X games typically have Explore, Expand, Exploit, and Exterminate phases. Dominions has a more limited set of options for Exploit than MOM or MOO/MOO2.

1.) Site-search (costs mage time and/or gems, may permanently increase the gem-production of that province)
2.) Build forts (increases resource and gold output of that province, allows recruitment of national units)
2b.) Build labs/temples (may be necessary to allow you to exploit certain indy pop types and/or sites)
3.) Forge gem-generators

I think you're arguing that the options available to Exploit are so limited that eliminating #3 cripples the Exploit phase to the point where it's not really worth playing as a 4X game. Is that right?

Well, not exactly, although along these lines.
I think with large maps and an extremely long timeframe it should contain 4X mechanics, but it really lacks in the exploit field (but I don't think gem gens as they are now are a good replacement) - and just relying on the castles and sitesearching (I don't care so much about terminology but I'd see them as explore personally) it's better to play it as a pure "duel" game imo.
Even if your wannabe god is completely uninterested in building or shaping his empire - your gem income/magic access has a great effect on your battles. Like you're not going to use much earth magic with 5 e gems income total and many nations are just not flexible enough to really cope.

Well about castles I think the general consensus is just to build the cheapest researcher factory possible. 400 gold are much early on, but +30 gold after turn 50 isn't really much when 50 gem scs are running around.

[Juffos]

If you wish to reduce micromanagement by eliminating diplomacy, please don't. Limit it to ingame messages. Diplomacy is necessary for the weak nations to unite and counter the strong.

[Snacktime]

Why not just have the gems generated by clams and other items or units go to the national inventory rather than to the unit wearing the item, so as to avoid the gem MM?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Snacktime

Why not just have the gems generated by clams and other items or units go to the national inventory rather than to the unit wearing the item, so as to avoid the gem MM?

Well, there are times you want the gems on the commander in question. Ok, not so much with fever fetish, but I could see bloodstone and clams used for such a purpose. Heck, *I've* used clams for such a purpose.

[Snacktime]

I agree that there are times you want the gems to appear on that commander, but I'd venture to say this is relatively uncommon, usually you just have a bunch of folks in your various castles holding the items to gem gen. losing that very minor tactical option would cause no balance issues that i can think of and have a pretty high return in terms of eliminating MM.