Tip: Template for reducing late game MM hell

[Sombre]

I don't see how it would severely discourage turtling. I doubt it would have much effect on turtling at all, since turtling is primarily a gem gen based strat and gem gens aren't really be hurt by the removal of domes. Scouts carry them after all.

Besides the guy with the clam farm can out remote the guy without one.

[Micah]

No way. Remote spells are already extremely effective, suggesting that the only line of defense against them be removed is foolishness. The damage domes are also useless, it's trivial to slap a couple of resistance items on the casting mage.

Turtling isn't a problem without non-province-based income, whereas gem gens introduce a host of problems into the game.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Micah

No way. Remote spells are already extremely effective, suggesting that the only line of defense against them be removed is foolishness. The damage domes are also useless, it's trivial to slap a couple of resistance items on the casting mage.

Turtling isn't a problem without non-province-based income, whereas gem gens introduce a host of problems into the game.

I'm not sure I understand. You're opposed to defensive play but removing something which makes defensive play powerful is bad?

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I'm not sure I understand. You're opposed to defensive play but removing something which makes defensive play powerful^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H tedious is bad?

Fixed your post.

-Max

[WraithLord]

gem gens recap:
1. Everybody does them. So nobody gets a serious advantage. I forge lots of them with every nation I play, even ones w/o paths. I just invest some and get/empower mages to needed paths. Everybody does it. The secret is out. All that's left is:
2. Tedious, mind numbing work of forging them and defending their holders.
3. They prolong end game since it's very hard to kill nations by taking their provinces. In-fact province are not that important when you have those 60 clams and 60 blood stones on scouts or what not.
4. They indirectly contribute to making end game turns longer by allowing a much higher gem income - thus more spells, SCs, forging work.
5. Coupled with wish the game just breaks.

Missed anything?

BTW, I have read somewhere that IW originally intended them to be used for battle. If there was a way to enforce that (not allowing their income to leave the holder) then they could be of use.

[K]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

gem gens recap:
1. Everybody does them. So nobody gets a serious advantage. I forge lots of them with every nation I play, even ones w/o paths. I just invest some and get/empower mages to needed paths. Everybody does it. The secret is out. All that's left is:
2. Tedious, mind numbing work of forging them and defending their holders.
3. They prolong end game since it's very hard to kill nations by taking their provinces. In-fact province are not that important when you have those 60 clams and 60 blood stones on scouts or what not.
4. They indirectly contribute to making end game turns longer by allowing a much higher gem income - thus more spells, SCs, forging work.
5. Coupled with wish the game just breaks.

Missed anything?

BTW, I have read somewhere that IW originally intended them to be used for battle. If there was a way to enforce that (not allowing their income to leave the holder) then they could be of use.

1. So they are not unbalancing the game. That's a flaw?
2. Yeh, and defending provinces, castles, mages, etc is so tedious.
3. The funny thing about the endgame is that you can take 90% of a person's provinces in a few rounds with thugs and SCs and then you have to actually fight their armies. It's actually good that the win doesn't always go to the sneak attacker.
4. Yes, having a gem income adds a level of complexity to the game. This is the wrong game for you if you don't like complexity.
5. Let's face it, any gem income and Wish causes weird things to happen. I once ended a game just by using my non-Astral, not gem-gen, gem income to Armageddon the place to death to force the end of the game because 15 players were stuck in terminal turtle mode and the game was never going to end.

Gem gens only cause MM when you spend a lot of time turtling and have extra gem income and mage time to spend on them. The fact that you want to hit people early and hard before they can build a hundred gem-gen items actually means that the endgame should be shorter if people are not stuck in terminal turtle mode.

If you spend a lot of time fighting, scripting a single large complicated army can take an hour or more. That and incentives to turtle should be the place where people should be spending their energies if they want to cut down MM.

[Psycho]

There is nothing wrong with playing defensively. The problem is that if you have loads of gem gens losing territory means nothing to you. One fort is all you need. Raiding means nothing to you. It is very hard to defeat such an opponent. Eventually, the one with most gem gens wins, because as we all know, gem income is the most important thing. You are forced to forge them if you want to win. Thus they reduce versatility.

[vfb]

Well, there's a way to enforce it, but it involves coding unfortunately.

First you have to make all gem-generators cursed.

Then IW would need to add code everywhere it's checking if gems cannot be taken off a commander because he's a merc, and also check that the commander is not wielding any gem generator.

[WraithLord]

vfb, I really like your suggestion. One can have a dream that perhaps one day in the future IW would give us a shining new patch with that implemented

[Squirrelloid]

Would it be possible to make an item that created a gem at the start of combat?

(I'm sure such a thing would be abuseable, but it would be much less so).