Tip: Template for reducing late game MM hell

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

This is true. Armor of Achilles/Destruction/Iron Bane/etc. destroy all inherent armor, leaving only armor which comes from forged equipment.

-Max

No they dont.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

No they dont.

It looks like they do. I ran a test where I hit a tart cyclops equipped with Weightless Scale and an Enchanted Shield with Armor of Achilles and the armor and shield were destroyed. Ran the same test with a Vanadrott with Lightweight Scale Mail and got the same result.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Why? In an ideal world, you merely want some type of endgame strategy potentially available to anyone, but it doesn't have to be SCs. In my limited experience, SCs tend to dominate the endgame mostly because they're more mobile than armies or summons (slap on a pair of boots and/or cast Teleport) and because they're good at taking out PD and unsupported armies--but serious battles always come down to the mages anyway. National summons along the lines of Iron Dragons/Ophanim/storm demons would be an acceptable substitute for SC access in my opinion, provided you had enough possibilities to make it nontrivial to counter (i.e. preserve flexibility). Either you send them out raiding or you use them as blockers while your mages rain down evocations--the same as you would do with SCs.

-Max

SCs have one more important attribute: they're tough. In my experience you don't see many human mages out in the field during the late game. They're simply too fragile. If you run into a couple of castings of rain of stones or earthquake before you can buff there go your mages.

Demons make good late game troops because they've got the HP to take a hit and good enough MR that being hit with master enslave before you buff won't result in losing your army. But your opponent will have those, or a comparable unit, in addition to his SCs so it seems to me you'll come up short if you don't have SCs of your own.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Valerius

It looks like they do. I ran a test where I hit a tart cyclops equipped with Weightless Scale and an Enchanted Shield with Armor of Achilles and the armor and shield were destroyed. Ran the same test with a Vanadrott with Lightweight Scale Mail and got the same result.

I'm not quibbling that they don't destroy a lot of armors. They do. There are more exceptions than max said, is all I'm alluding to.

[Gregstrom]

So why not state the exceptions?

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Yes, without clams it's much harder for Bandar to afford its national summons. But it's harder for every other nation without recruitable SCs (or the Chalice/GoH) as well. And in any case, isn't a Bandar without gem gens still in a better position than Man, who has no national summons at all?

Man still has combat evocations and decent troops (esp. with CBM, which makes it possible to mass cavalry). Also, Kinnaras are so frail that even as Bandar Log I often end up using Golems instead of them, so having Kinnaras is not much of an advantage. (Kinnaras can be effective raiders with less equipment, though)
Only Rudras and Devatas are really unique, and these are high in the research tree and expensive.
Perhaps Bandar Log are better than Man in the endgame even without the gem generators, but how about comparing them to some *good* nation?

Anyway, I hope that 'no gem generators' mod wont become an integrated part of CBM. After all, Oceania and Bandar Log (aka clammer nations) do not dominate all MA games, do they?

[WraithLord]

Updated first post.

[Micah]

I think sticking to the current top two (map size and gem gens) plus possible rand scenarios is probably going to be the best plan, since I don't really like the theoretical "feel" of a lot of the optional listings, and I think getting as many people on-board with gem-gen elimination will be doing everyone a favor. I also don't think Forge is particularly egregious mm, so trying to hash down the global list would probably be difficult.

[Meglobob]

I like reducing map size and RAND games, those will reduce MM and not really effect how fun the game is.

Gem generators, fine make them unique (not eliminate them totally) but EA & MA Oceania and MA Machaka need some serious boosting. Even with gem generators those nations are poor.

Banning astral corruption, arcane nexus, utter dark and burden of time have been around for some time and are ok with me, they spoil the endgame and create alot of MM.

I don't like banning the Forge.

Also, I would not join a MP game with the other options/nerfs in place.

[vfb]

How does AN cause micromanagement?

Under Utterdark you just need to reclaim provinces you lose to shades, it's just like you are being raided.

I suppose BoT causes micro because you have to take items off your old mages before they croak, and you might have to double-check for Mute/Feeblemind when heading into battle.

I think these spells are good for hastening victory, and getting the endgame over with.