Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game. Game on!

[archaeolept]

the magic paths for itza and chaos commanders are messed up. I doubt that the 1 gp chameleon skink scout is supposed to have 1a 4s, or the skink priest 4d 1n 3? (also warchief and oldblood have hvy paths) - and, strangely coincidentally, 3 of the 4 chaos "lords" have no magic at all... for 400 gp that seems a bit steep

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, i've reviewed the amonchaos version

Lord of the Endtimes should be corrected to the version we discussed burnsaber. Also, with those corrections, new paths should also be reduced to 50 instead of 80. The amonchaos version is unplayably expensive (and has encumbrance too, so its 150pts for probably a 50pt chassis). Not that I plan on using one.

I've come to the conclusion that the lords are all priced wrong and far too high, with the possible exception of tzeentch. The champions are probably also poorly priced too. Details:

General: All the lords should have at least H1.

Nurgle Lord isn't even that good. He can't SC, and he has no magic, so he's just a glorified thug. The lord is lucky if he's 200g good, which gives me doubts on the 200g pricetag of the champion. Fix: I don't know man. Dropping the price to 200g would mean needing to seriously re-evaluate teh champion.

Slaanesh was somewhat playable in the original, but not amazing. Amonchaos then goes and nerfs his enslave attack to be easily resisted (at least i think it was changed - before amonchaos i had 80-90% success using it against indies), and now its mostly useless. Drop the price to 250 and restore the enslave attack to not be easily resisted. (even with the dropped pricetag, its not exactly an attack that chaos will be *spamming*)

Tzeentch Lord: Agree with 500g pricetag, given caveat on H1 above.

Khorne: The 3 fatigue per turn absolutely kills the utility of this unit early, and its a glorified thug later. probably 200-250g.

That brings us to champions:
With the exception of Tzeentch I'd drop the champions to 100-150g tops. Probably Slaanesh >= Khorne > Nurgle, but rated at something like 125g, 115g, 90g or something like that. I might also consider giving them H1 at those or slightly higher prices. (Compare to jotun herses/jarls. Yomi may also be a decent nation to compare to). Tzeentch may deserve a mild price decrease, say 175.

Basically, the chaos lords and champions are priced as if they had halfway decent magic. Tzeentch meets that expectation, but the others definitely don't. I suppose the alternate fix is to give them reasonable magic, but that strikes me as harder. (I suppose Nurgle Champions could have D2H1 and the Lord have D4H2, with W2H1 and W4H2 for Slaanesh. Giving Khorne magic is sort of out of the question, and that's not an exciting amount of magic - probably still worth a mild price decrease, eg, 175 and 350ish pricetags. It would also make the Nurgle Lord actually good at some point since eventually he can cast Soul Vortex). Under this theory, Tzeentch Champion should keep the 200 pricetag and probably become S2 + 50%S + 33%S, as H1 seems less thematic for Tzeentch, but the current state of the Tz champion is acceptable.

The troops, on the other hand, do seem relatively reasonably priced.

[Trumanator]

When you are using the mod, make sure you DO NOT enable cbm 1.6, as it is already incorporated in the mod. Otherwise you get weirdness like Archae did.

[archaeolept]

yah. against crappy indies, maybe. I guess the berserk helps... but really, killing indies isn't much to speak of.

[Squirrelloid]

Hmm... i got an error - can't find clandwarf? In the chaos mod? Do i need to be using the other combined mod? Why would that involve clandwarves anyway?

Edit: I suppose relevantly - is the new chaos mod already incorporated into the starting mod? Is it meant to run companion to it?

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Hmm... i got an error - can't find clandwarf? In the chaos mod? Do i need to be using the other combined mod? Why would that involve clandwarves anyway?

Edit: I suppose relevantly - is the new chaos mod already incorporated into the starting mod? Is it meant to run companion to it?

My bad. Fixed version in this post (I didn't inlcude graphics, just .dm file, because that is where the error was)

[Squirrelloid]

I have this sense that even with the changes you've made, Lord of Tzeentch and Champion of Tz are among the only playable options for chaos lords.

I'll agree, the Lord of Nurgle *looks* like he has a lot going on. But have you tried to *use* him? Even the khornate lord outperforms against weak PD.

Stats (Lords)
Khorn: 300g 49r; Str 17 Att 17 Def 22; HP 30 Prot 21; Berzerk 6 Exh 3
Nurgle: 375g 50r; Str 15 Att 15 Def 18; HP 34 Prot 20; H1 Regen20% Fear+0 PR100 Undead PlagueCarrier Rejuvenation
Slaanesh: 375g 49r; Str 13 Att 12 Def 19; HP 24 Prot 20; H1 Awe+3

All have a magical weapon. Slaanesh has a magical ranged attack (enslave mind).

Stats (Champions)
Khorn: 175g 33r; Str 17 Att 17 Def 12; HP 35 Prot 21; Berzerk 5 Exh 3
Nurgle: 250g 33r; Str 15 Att 15 Def 17; HP 30 Prot 20; Regen10% Fear +0 PR100 Undead PlagueCarrier Rejuvenation
Slaanesh: 175g 33r; Str 13 Att 13 Def 16; HP 24 Prot 20; Awe+1

(all are sacred)

Some comparison stats:
EA Atlantis
BQ: 250g 1r; Str 20 Att 12 Def 5; HP 48 Prot 14; H3 Amph F+0 FR50 CR50 DkVis
BK: 500g 1r; Str 21 Att 13 Def 12; HP 51 Prot 16; F1W2E3 +110%? Amph F+0 FR50 CR50 DkVis

A straight up comparison of hte BK with the Lord of Slaanesh reveals that 125g extra for the BK is well worth the price. Stats are reasonably equivalent (BK takes a lower Def in exchange for much higher str, and trades a few pts of prot for almost double HP), but the BK also adds 7.1 magic paths, and trades Awe+3 for amph, Fear, partial resistance to fire and cold, and dark vision. The BK comes out more than 125g extra good compared to the Nurgle Lord as well.

The BQ compares quite favorably to the identically priced Nurgle Champion. H3 is an amazing advantage relative to the Nurgle champion's total lack of casting.

Yomi:
Oni General: 130g 33r; Str 17 Att 13 Def 11; HP 30 Prot 20; D+100%? FR50 PR50 NNE Demon MtnSurv Glutton

A rather comparable chassis to the champion level units, including similar HP, protection, and slightly lower stats - but it also comes with some magical ability. Setting the chaos champions to approximately this price seems emminently reasonable by comparison.

Dao Oni: 500g 39r; Str 20 Att 16 Def 12; HP 50 Prot 20; F2E2D3H1 +110%? F+3 FR50 PR50 NNE Demon MtnSurv Glutton

If 8.1 magic paths beyond H1 isn't much more than 125g good than the chaos lords, i don't know what is. The chassis is otherwise comparable, trading defense for improved str and 80% more HP. Also has fear *+3*, as if it wasn't already a strictly better buy per gp than Nurgle's Lord.

Fomoria:
Nemedian Champion: 140g 25r; Str 13 Att 15 Def 18; HP 15 Prot 10; A1D1H1 Stlth+25 DkVis50 Glamour

Another reasonably comparable chassis to the champions. Note the few shortcomings are probably more than made up for by the magical paths.

Fomorian King: 500g 37r; Str 25 Att 12 Def 13; HP 70 Prot 15; A3D2H2 +110%? PoorAmph CR50 Sailing

Sailing is pretty amazing - it and 6.1 magic paths + an extra holy level go a long way to put it more than 125g beyond the chaos lord choices.

Jotunheim:
Jotun Herse: 60g 41r; Str 21 Att 12 Def 13; HP 32 Prot 17;

This is a perfect comparison. Same HP, not much less protection, more strength at lower att/def, merely sacred with no holy level. And its *1/3* the cost. Based on this, none of the champions should be much over 100g (excepting Tz who has magic).

Basically, there's no way to justify gold costs as high as they are for what those units do. I mean, if you leave it the way it is i can guarantee i'll be playing almost pure Tz and sorcerors for commanders, because they'll be the only ones worth buying.

The best fix is almost certainly to hand out some magic while cutting prices until those units are reasonable.

(The exalted sorceror is probably overpriced at present as well, since for 320g you're expecting quite a bit more magical oomph - compare to Shinuyama's bakemono sorceror).

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I'll agree, the Lord of Nurgle *looks* like he has a lot going on. But have you tried to *use* him? Even the khornate lord outperforms against weak PD.

Using a unit's performance against PD 'naked', perhaps isn't the best measuring stick on performance. The nurgle guy has poison cloud, that alone gives him a niche against armies of few elite units.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

(The exalted sorceror is probably overpriced at present as well, since for 320g you're expecting quite a bit more magical oomph - compare to Shinuyama's bakemono sorceror).

I lowered his gold cost to 275 gold in the latest fix.

As for your insightful posts, I just really want to get the game started. If you feel like only the Tzeentecth guys are usable, just use them then. I don't have time and/or patience to give the lords and champions extensive magic pick and cost revamps and to test them. Chaos is pretty powerful enough as it stands, with its diverse magic, insane pretender chassis, good summons, strong troops and national late-game SC summons. You have some 'dead choices', which is a shame, but we really need to move along here. In hidsight, I should have taken a better look at chaos before starting this game, but what is done is done.

As for your unit comparisons, I find them quite insightful. You are forgetting one thing thought. Context. A lot power of the chassis/unit comes from the other choices you have in the nation. Example: BK would be a lot more powerful chassis in MA Ulm, since ulm has a *lot* better ability to forge gear for it.

Also remember that a nation that would have chassises which are somewhat equal to BK, Dai Oni and Fomorian King (respectively) would be serious candidate for overpowerdness. These units are absolute stars and selling points of their respective nations. You can't just compile an "all-stars" team of SC chassises and expect it to be balanced. There needs to be "diversity cost" added to each of them, where you pay for the options you have. Being diverse and having a lot of good options is also a national strenght, just like being able to bloosac, getting extra points due to temp scales and so forth.

Don't take this wrong, some of the Champions and Lords could probably use a boost, but you should also think of the context when estimating prices. IMHO, you probably should list your thoughts and comaprisons to the Chaos thread, I'm sure that he will find them insightful.

[Sombre]

Yeah I agree with burn. Rebalancing chaos is a different issue. Should either be a new project with the permission of panpiper, or submitted in feedback in panpiper's thread.

If they're overpowered or underpowered it will probably come out in this game and that's fine - there's a degree of experiment about any mod nations game.

[archaeolept]

with just the 6-pack mod enabled, I am still unable to see any "insane pretender chassis." Also, while those champions/lords do seem over-priced, rebalancing, as was said, needs to be done in total context. Simply comparing one to an EA BK does not do much.