Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Digress]

Originally Posted by Trumanator

I think that the spell "Fate of Oedipus" should be removed, or at least drastically changed. At the moment it adds nothing, it just means that no one will ever cast Eyes of God in a game.

High level S mages don't really need eyes anyway ...

And does anyone really cast Eyes of God other than to show off ?

[Sombre]

They might, if it didn't mean a certain dispel and blinding via FoO. And if it was cheaper.

The thing is EoG is cool and interesting, and FoO while cool in concept, does nothing but stop people casting EoG. So it never even gets cast itself.

[vfb]

EoG is useful to:
- take up a global slot, without making people mad
- let you look at the gear on the heroes in the HoF
- scout out rare (discovered) sites in enemy lands
- scout out income (pop) in enemy lands

You only need it up for one turn to get info on sites and income.

I've used it in more than one MP game. But it used to be 30 pearls, now it's 50. With no more clams, I probably wouldn't cast it now.

[Digress]

Originally Posted by vfb

EoG is useful to:
- take up a global slot, without making people mad
- let you look at the gear on the heroes in the HoF

I have cast it for the first reason - but class it as showing off. Basically saying "I can burn a bunch of pearls just to see whats cooking". I take the view that you can never have too many astral pearls ... never.

I had no idea it gave you info on heroes ... thanks.

[Sombre]

I think CBM is worthwhile even if you only play SP, because it evens out the difference between things which are hugely cost effective and those which are, essentially, far too little bang for you buck.

You might really like the concept and look of a certain summon, for instance abysian smoulderghosts. But whenever you use them, they do worse than far cheaper regular troops, which is discouraging, so you stop using them and almost inevitably drift towards stuff which works well, rather than stuff which is interesting (partly because the stuff which works actually survives and is affordable, while the other stuff dies horribly). Now if you introduce CBM, it makes those smoulderghosts, if used in an intelligent way, worth the cost. That idea you had of using them with sulphur clouds becomes feasible, because you can actually afford more of them. So you're able to make use of the units and tactics you want to without them being overshadowed too horribly by obvious better choices. They may still not be optimal, but at least they work ok.

[BigDaddy]

But smoulderghosts is a conjuration 2 spell, it should be far inferior to level 8 spells... like animate archers. If the smoulderghosts become comparable to skeletal archers then the CBM is a game mechanics fail.

I don't know exactly how these two things were determined. Well, if you go straight for conjuration with Abysia, the smoulderghost seem intent to fill a very short term early game niche if you've got death gems, or you can cast protection spells on them. They also have a magic weapon. I could say that the smouldghosts suck for similar reasons that Caelum sucks. I think that's funny.

But, I'm not arguing against the CBM, I just think it takes away from nation specific skill.

Since I always played MP with added AI players, clamming hard with the computer set to aggressive. The objective should be to make rushing more appealing.

IMHO nations without an H3 priest are at a serious disadvantage as they can be easily rushed. Maybe we should give everyone H3 priest? How do you make up for the fact that every MA Pythium city has a H3 brigade of "researchers" inside it? You don't, that is just how Pythium is. Or maybe we could just tinker with smite... I just smote my brother in MP the other day (10 Kings of Rain showed up at his territory on turn 16). He still thinks its scary... especially because I was also ahead in research. Maybe getting smote doesn't bother people as much because it happens early in the game, whereas losing because you of clamming takes days.


Unless they have a titan pretender which can kill lots of priests without equipment. But then you can't heal your pretender until you get to conjuration or construction 8.

I guess it isn't that I fail to see the usage of the CBM, I just fail to see the game as horribly imbalanced in the first place.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

But smoulderghosts is a conjuration 2 spell, it should be far inferior to level 8 spells... like animate archers. If the smoulderghosts become comparable to skeletal archers then the CBM is a game mechanics fail.

I don't know exactly how these two things were determined. Well, if you go straight for conjuration with Abysia, the smoulderghost seem intent to fill a very short term early game niche if you've got death gems, or you can cast protection spells on them. They also have a magic weapon. I could say that the smouldghosts suck for similar reasons that Caelum sucks. I think that's funny.

His point was that smoulderghosts in vanilla are so bad, no one would ever spend gems on them. You can pay gold for better troops. Since gems > gold (bar fire gems), you'll never spend gems to get troops worse than what you can just hire.

But, I'm not arguing against the CBM, I just think it takes away from nation specific skill.

Er... non-sequitur? How? There are still nations, they have distinct national units, they have particular paths and pretender choices. In fact, CBM increases nation differentiation *because* it removes gem gens. Since you can't just clam/blood-stone/fever fetish your way to arbitrarily large gem pools, your endgame is no longer nothing but summoned troops and mages. National mages and troops are more important all game long.

Since I always played MP with added AI players, clamming hard with the computer set to aggressive. The objective should be to make rushing more appealing.

... no no no. The objective should be to make the game more balanced and interesting so every nation has a fair shake. Rushing is already really powerful - if anything, it could probably use a little toning down in some cases. Ideally, mid-game should be longer and more relevant, since that's the interesting part of the game.

IMHO nations without an H3 priest are at a serious disadvantage as they can be easily rushed. Maybe we should give everyone H3 priest? How do you make up for the fact that every MA Pythium city has a H3 brigade of "researchers" inside it? You don't, that is just how Pythium is. Or maybe we could just tinker with smite... I just smote my brother in MP the other day (10 Kings of Rain showed up at his territory on turn 16). He still thinks its scary... especially because I was also ahead in research. Maybe getting smote doesn't bother people as much because it happens early in the game, whereas losing because you of clamming takes days.

You could afford to send 3500 gold worth of commanders on an offensive on turn 16? You do realize how horribly inefficient that is right? I'd take equal gold against them any day. The smite isn't what makes them scary. One of them dropping divine blessing on 50 double-blessed jags would be a *lot* scarier, and a heck of a lot cheaper. (1600 gold vs. 3500 gold, assuming you had nothing but commanders in your example, which is almost certainly false). And by turn 16 he should have real counters. Like bladewind or thunderstrike. Smite is small potatoes by comparison.

Unless they have a titan pretender which can kill lots of priests without equipment. But then you can't heal your pretender until you get to conjuration or construction 8.

Dar?

I guess it isn't that I fail to see the usage of the CBM, I just fail to see the game as horribly imbalanced in the first place.

Where to start? Well, besides Ashdod (which CBM still hasn't nerfed enough).

We could start with their being only ~7 pretender chasses ever worth using in vanilla.

We could start with the strict domination of some nations over most others. I mean, nations like MA Man are still bad in CBM, but they are absolutely *hopeless* in vanilla.

We could start with the poorly balanced spells such that some of them are win buttons and others are useless or mostly useless.

I mean, what kind of specific examples would you like?

CBM doesn't just balance nations against each other, it also balances options against each other so more of the spells and units see play. Its done the latter of these rather well in many cases, in some as well as is possible without fundamental changes. (e.g., MA Ermor's censor cannot be priced so that it will ever be bought if it remains cap-only, so no change CBM could make that retains its cap-only status will effect how often it sees play).

[BigDaddy]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

His point was that smoulderghosts in vanilla are so bad, no one would ever spend gems on them. You can pay gold for better troops. Since gems > gold (bar fire gems), you'll never spend gems to get troops worse than what you can just hire.

Er... non-sequitur? How? There are still nations, they have distinct national units, they have particular paths and pretender choices. In fact, CBM increases nation differentiation *because* it removes gem gens. Since you can't just clam/blood-stone/fever fetish your way to arbitrarily large gem pools, your endgame is no longer nothing but summoned troops and mages. National mages and troops are more important all game long.



... no no no. The objective should be to make the game more balanced and interesting so every nation has a fair shake. Rushing is already really powerful - if anything, it could probably use a little toning down in some cases. Ideally, mid-game should be longer and more relevant, since that's the interesting part of the game.



You could afford to send 3500 gold worth of commanders on an offensive on turn 16? You do realize how horribly inefficient that is right? I'd take equal gold against them any day. The smite isn't what makes them scary. One of them dropping divine blessing on 50 double-blessed jags would be a *lot* scarier, and a heck of a lot cheaper. (1600 gold vs. 3500 gold, assuming you had nothing but commanders in your example, which is almost certainly false). And by turn 16 he should have real counters. Like bladewind or thunderstrike. Smite is small potatoes by comparison.

Dar?

Where to start? Well, besides Ashdod (which CBM still hasn't nerfed enough).

We could start with their being only ~7 pretender chasses ever worth using in vanilla.

We could start with the strict domination of some nations over most others. I mean, nations like MA Man are still bad in CBM, but they are absolutely *hopeless* in vanilla.

We could start with the poorly balanced spells such that some of them are win buttons and others are useless or mostly useless.

I mean, what kind of specific examples would you like?

CBM doesn't just balance nations against each other, it also balances options against each other so more of the spells and units see play. Its done the latter of these rather well in many cases, in some as well as is possible without fundamental changes. (e.g., MA Ermor's censor cannot be priced so that it will ever be bought if it remains cap-only, so no change CBM could make that retains its cap-only status will effect how often it sees play).

He attacked them through PD, and they had blood slaves with them. We play on indy's 7 or more, I'm used to 9, so I tend to make really powerful armies that are inefficient. They did have lab and a few demons... I was Mictalan afterall... he was bogarus, they killed a lot of heavy calvary. It is probably bad for my "professional" experience. It is true that I haven't played dom3 that much, I'm just an old dom2 player.

What are the 7 chassis? Enchantress, statue, fountain, fountain... actually I think all the immobile ones have their niche.

I never liked the titans, as they seem like late game mage artillery... because they really aren't good for taking provinces early on, and it doesn't take long until taking provinces with a few basic spells becomes a waste of their time.

Maybe I'm just missing some tactics somewhere.

I feel like I'm missing something. So, to find out, I need to play MA Man.

[KissBlade]

If you find it balanced in the first place, then don't use a balance mod. =) However, a lot of people don't find it balanced so opt for the alternative.

[BigDaddy]

I seem to having some difficulty getting my point across or my question across. In what cases should I use the CBM? Most of the people on this thread are divided between "never" and "always." It's clearly a popular mod.

In what cases should I use the CBM?