A Discussion on kingmaking and community standards.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by vfb

Well, for me, it goes against the whole spirit of the game. See those black candles? Enemy dominion. You can call him your ally if you like, but if his pretender ascends, that's the end of your pretender. Your would-be god is now banished forever to oblivion.

Spirit of the game can be interpreted many ways. Many of the pretenders served or were banished or imprisoned by the previous Pantokrator, why should they not except the new one to fall and to have another chance in time?
The mechanics of actually being defeated (province loss or dominion death) seem to rule against it, but does ascending actually rule out bringing former allies back as servants?
Or if they expect this ruler to fall eventually as well, then perhaps favors or enmities will be remembered when they return from this next imprisonment?

Even without that, once you start basing decisions on how the pretenders feel anything is justifiable. Bringing the hated rival down with me. Some pretenders might even feel concern for their subjects and hope their last act of generosity will lead the eventual ruler to treat them more kindly or ensure a kinder ruler. Come up with your own justification!

Sure, they may all be enemies in the end, but there's still a difference between the theoretical enemy you've been, temporarily, allied with and the hated foe who's been hounding you since your return.

[vfb]

Okay, I admit, RP can interfere with my philosophy of acting in the best interest of either achieving victory for my pretender, or maximizing my nation's long-term survival. I'm sure I'm guilty of this! But if my nation is going to exact revenge on another nation, for me that revenge has got to be delivered personally. It makes a nicer story if I blow my nation up while destroying my tormentor. I wouldn't get any satisfaction from going AI and giving all my gems to the game leader, even though the result is the same in the end.

And if I hypothetically survive to the end-game as a weak little nation of Man, with no hope for victory, I could see myself actively supporting a Marignon in his war against Ermor, if Ermor had at one point cast BoT and made a bunch of my guys old and dead. I guess that would make me Marignon's vassal. :shudder: I still wouldn't try to end the game by giving Marignon one of my VPs though.

Crap, now that I think about it, I do a whole bunch of dumb non-optimal stuff for RP reasons! And it's not likely I'm going to stop either, since I play more to escape the drudgery of reality, rather than engaging in some sort of intellectual competition.

Originally Posted by thejeff

Spirit of the game can be interpreted many ways. Many of the pretenders served or were banished or imprisoned by the previous Pantokrator, why should they not except the new one to fall and to have another chance in time?
The mechanics of actually being defeated (province loss or dominion death) seem to rule against it, but does ascending actually rule out bringing former allies back as servants?
Or if they expect this ruler to fall eventually as well, then perhaps favors or enmities will be remembered when they return from this next imprisonment?

Even without that, once you start basing decisions on how the pretenders feel anything is justifiable. Bringing the hated rival down with me. Some pretenders might even feel concern for their subjects and hope their last act of generosity will lead the eventual ruler to treat them more kindly or ensure a kinder ruler. Come up with your own justification!

Sure, they may all be enemies in the end, but there's still a difference between the theoretical enemy you've been, temporarily, allied with and the hated foe who's been hounding you since your return.

Originally Posted by WraithLord

I think this cuts to the heart of matter. Your assertion completely disregards that the other player may not share your sentiment. Perhaps he is a newb and is content to follow a vet. Perhaps he received so much help during all the game from his ally that he is willing to make all sacrifice for him and so on and so forth.
The fact of the matter is that different players have different personalities and get their kick out of the game in different manner.
I personally would always fight to last drop of blood. I would never bow to another player.
I am aware however that we are not all the same. I think we - the die hard, alpha types need to show more respect and understanding of different personalities.
If we want to eliminate kingmaking as a source of unbalance we either prohibit diplo or prohibit all kingmaking acts is what I think.

[Illuminated One]

Originally Posted by vfb

Crap, now that I think about it, I do a whole bunch of dumb non-optimal stuff for RP reasons! And it's not likely I'm going to stop either, since I play more to escape the drudgery of reality, rather than engaging in some sort of intellectual competition.

He, I'm always annoyed at how I stop doing stupid RP stuff for the sake of min maxing.