Guide: Agartha, Pale ones - a study in darkness (CBM)

[chrispedersen]

Trogs are *not* cold blooded. (your first point). Emphasize them in cold terrains.

A blood blessing increases the strength of your boulder throwers, and hence the range.

I think, more than any other nation, that your choice of pretender is dependent on starting position. Adjacent or near to water, or a map with a lot of water consider an olm. Otherwise I agree with a forge lord.

Earth meld (alt2) lets your troops *hit*.

Also, you have not justified your pd 25 all over. I do agree with High PD (tho not all over) but no justification is given for it.

Still, a good job, and a good guide. Lots of points that others have missed - bolas, medallions. Consider Giant strength for your bolder throwers.

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Trogs are *not* cold blooded. (your first point). Emphasize them in cold terrains.

Yes thats right, good point. However I don´t find the trogs very competetive on their own. I think that in general you´ll want to use dom pushing or summons if you have to go into cold dominion.

A blood blessing increases the strength of your boulder throwers, and hence the range.

Oh yes, I beleive you even thanked me for that idea in the CBM thread. I was playing around a lot with nature and blood, but after extensive testing I came to the conclution that extra range don´t make much difference, that cavern guards beat Ancient ones in the long run even given nature and blood and that those paths are not what the nation needs, especially without blood stones. One thing I ralised is that you´ll have lots of earth gems anyway, more than enough to pull the stuff in this this guide off usually.

I think, more than any other nation, that your choice of pretender is dependent on starting position. Adjacent or near to water, or a map with a lot of water consider an olm. Otherwise I agree with a forge lord.

Ahem... Your *whole nation* are fully amphibious, getting into water is no problem at all. Would you really sacrifice the hammers, mentors, rings and golems to get... what? Nature searching for forts can easily be done by giving breath rings or shambler skins to indy shamans. Water you have on your oracles.

Earth meld (alt2) lets your troops *hit*.

I mentioned it I beleive. But yeah, thats right.

Also, you have not justified your pd 25 all over. I do agree with High PD (tho not all over) but no justification is given for it.

It is justified many times over when you drop mechanical militia as described in the section "Gear four", try it.

Still, a good job, and a good guide. Lots of points that others have missed - bolas, medallions.

Thanks for that, but I feel you are missing my point a bit (no offense) The bolas and medallions are minor details, the core of this strategy is to build your armies a certain way to circumvent low attack values, create the foundation for outstanding research without getting dry on gems, launch a solid defence system and finally to multiply your strenght through darkness and heavy buffs.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Fantomen

Yes thats right, good point. However I don´t find the trogs very competetive on their own. I think that in general you´ll want to use dom pushing or summons if you have to go into cold dominion.

Oh yes, I beleive you even thanked me for that idea in the CBM thread. I was playing around a lot with nature and blood, but after extensive testing I came to the conclution that extra range don´t make much difference, that cavern guards beat Ancient ones in the long run even given nature and blood and that those paths are not what the nation needs, especially without blood stones. One thing I ralised is that you´ll have lots of earth gems anyway, more than enough to pull the stuff in this this guide off usually.


Ahem... Your *whole nation* are fully amphibious, getting into water is no problem at all. Would you really sacrifice the hammers, mentors, rings and golems to get... what? Nature searching for forts can easily be done by giving breath rings or shambler skins to indy shamans. Water you have on your oracles.


I mentioned it I beleive. But yeah, thats right.

It is justified many times over when you drop mechanical militia as described in the section "Gear four", try it.

Thanks for that, but I feel you are missing my point a bit (no offense) The bolas and medallions are minor details, the core of this strategy is to build your armies a certain way to circumvent low attack values, create the foundation for outstanding research without getting dry on gems, launch a solid defence system and finally to multiply your strenght through darkness and heavy buffs.

I play a *lot* with agartha - as I've been writing a mod for them so I'm fully cognizant of the need to maximize their ability to hit. So I agree with that point. Darkness rocks!

Some other things to mention.

Agarthans are mostly size 4. The ability to mix in size two units (or better, size 1 units) is invaluable. Play with placement so the normals don't take undue casualties.

Independent shamans can be invaluable for tanglevines as well.

I agree that Trogs attrit too much to lean on. Mostly I was correcting your point #1.

As for considering the olm - I stand by that comment. There is a huge differenct between ramping up immediately - and having to wait for item construction.

I am not impressed with mechanical militia. Nice but any competent late game army is going to beat pd. I'd rather be spending gems on gear, or earth attacks. And generally $$ on mages, forts.

I still don't think anyone is going to confuse you with mictlan, lanka, niefle, as a superpower. Even with a good guide, I'd still rate them a C- for competitive multiplayer. Anyway its your guide, its good, and I'll leave the lasts words for you!

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Fantomen

It is justified many times over when you drop mechanical militia as described in the section "Gear four", try it.

I could try it, but I'd like to hear the justification from you before I do, because I can't see how 25 pd all over is worthwhile just because you can cast mechanical militia. I see some synergy just in terms of mass and they both work well in the dark, but I don't really get it,...

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by Sombre

I could try it, but I'd like to hear the justification from you before I do, because I can't see how 25 pd all over is worthwhile just because you can cast mechanical militia. I see some synergy just in terms of mass and they both work well in the dark, but I don't really get it,...

I guess I was wrong, I thought it scaled with pd. So ok don´t crank up your pd that much.

I still think it is a good idea for Agartha to buy decent pd of 10 or so all over and drop mechanical militia in the beginning of year 3, turn 22 or so. That is just when some other nations start thinking about air drops and blitzkriegs and Agartha could have some problems handling that.

The idea is that Mechanical militia + a couple golems this early in the game offsets your slow movement a bit and acts as a deterrent to many kinds of attacks.

I doubt if i was Heleim for example and about to launch my first massive air drop in the game, that I would chose a nation that just put up mechanical militia.

Not that mechanical milita would protect you against everything but at this point in the game people are generally looking for easy pickings, which you wont seem like.

If you don´t like the idea then just use the gems another way, it won´t change the general idea of my strategy that much.