MP: Land Rand - Jotunheim Wins!

[LoloMo]

Who played the other nations? I would like to know who helmed Ermor and killed all my stealthy Sidhe lords with mind hunt!

[Meglobob]

Well done Jotuns / Micah

[WraithLord]

CongratZ Micah

So who played what?- Do we have a full list?

Can we see some late game turns?- I missed that fun after being kicked out by Mictlan.

Oh and BTW a short Machaka AAR.

I based my strat loosely on Baalz guide. So no hvy bless, good scales* and a S/D master lich.
*Took O3Mft2 and I came to realize msft 2 is bad in CBM - My early game expansion was marred by countless indie attacks.

Then Van attacked me and somehow Machaka managed to turn the tide and gain the upper hand in that war.
Alas, at the moment of its glory it got attacked by both Mictlan and Ermor and as a result it became evident that the only thing Machaka could hope for is to die with some manner of dignity

Ermor went another way and Mictlan proceeded to mop up Machaka. Bad luck also gave Mictlan Machaka’s VP much easier than it should have since my lich got an ½ paths affliction and couldn’t put up storm

I’m looking forward for another RAND when Pasha would feel up to it :-)
hehe, and I hope to got a solid nation next time

Good game all. I had lots of fun.

[Zeldor]

Squirrelloid made lame move of attacking me, thus making sure Jotun wins. I was waiting for him to attack Jotun, so I could join and help [and C'tis was probably waiting for that too].

[Squirrelloid]

I thought I might be able to kill Mictlan faster than Jotunheim could kill TC for a couple reasons. (1) Mictlan looked somewhat overextended. (2) TC had been turtling all game, surely they had something awesome up their sleeve that would hold Jotunheim for awhile (ha ha - no). (3) Mictlan had enough VPs to put me within a reasonable distance of winning - figured I'd finish of BL and Pangaea for the final two in all likelihood (BL would probably be the harder of the two). (4) There was no way in hell I was going to attack Jotunheim, therefore, only by attacking Mictlan could I get enough VPs to win.

There were two reasons I wasn't going to attack Jotun:

First, I was pretty sure Jotunheim was ready for me to do attack him, and it would be bad for me. In IRC Micah confirmed my fears that attacking Jotun would've been the death of me - not exactly how I thought, but probably even more brutal than I expected.

Second, Zeldor, you attacked me first (in former Van territory). I had no reason to believe you weren't massing forces to begin a real invasion, so with the likely threat of a war with Mictlan *regardless* of what I did, there certainly wasn't any way I was attacking Jotunheim.

Further, even if I do attack Jotunheim, why do you come in against Jotun and not me? Just like you could give me enough VPs to make victory plausible, I could do the same for you. So I see no reason to suspect people would join in against Jotunheim when I'd make at least as tempting a target.

Of course, when it became apparent that Mictlan was capable of stalemating me (ugg.. Undead Mastery everywhere!), it was pretty clear who the winner was going to be.

[Zeldor]

It looks like you need to learn a lot about MP still

You took one some Van provs when I was at war with him, including one that was in the middle of my provs then, blocking my movements etc. I just took it with small force, without putting any big armies nearby [like you did]. Your next moves made it quite obvious you lack RAND experience and larger scope.

Your assumption that you can grab VPs from me was a bit naive. Also getting one from BL would be quite hard. I attacked him only to block access for Jotun to his cap.

Sure, attacking Jotun would have been hard [and maybe fatal], but for some time it was quite obvious that without him being taken down [or weakened] no one else can win. So you just helped him

[PashaDawg]

Here is the full list of players:

Aethyr = Agartha (Dead turn 20)
Atul = Pan
Calahan = Ulm (Dead turn 30)
Jurri = Bandar Log
Lingchih = Arco (gone AI turn 60)
Lolomo = Eriu
Meglobob = C'tis
Micah = Jotunheim
MscFish; Replaced by BandC = Caelum
Namad; Replaced by Folket = Man (Dead turn 32)
Omnirizon = Pythium (Gone AI turn 39)
Quantum Mechani; Replaced by Alpine Joe Turn 41 = Tien Chi
Squirrelloid = Ermor
Trumanator = Vanheim (Gone AI turn 41)
Wokeye = Shinuyama (Gone AI turn 31)
Wraithlord = Machaka (Dead turn 63)
Ygorl = Ashdod (Dead turn 59)
Zeldor = Mictlan

Pasha

[Meglobob]

Classic RAND, once a nation gets a decent lead, they are hard to take down because there's no diplomacy, so the the normal method ganging up on them can't be used.

For the record, I was scared of the Jotuns the entire game and thus had massive forces all along the Ctis/Jotun border. I had no intention of attacking Jotun on my own as it would have been suicide. I was hoping Jotun would mess up trying to take another nation out or Mictlan would attack the Jotuns and then I would have tried to take advantage.

[WraithLord]

I assumed Ermor and Mictlan would attack Jotun b/c it should have been obvious to them that any other action would lead to them losing the game.

I think the fatal catch in RAND games is assuming you could just make another grab instead of stopping the clear winner.
Reason is simple, with no diplo on why would anyone risk a losing war instead of making easy gains instead or just turtling. This is even true when it's crystal clear that player A is going to win and all the rest are losing!
Petty wars still rage. Grudges are unforgiven. Opportunistic raids cont. etc.

RAND experience makes help better decisions but experience only goes so far to offset the RAND psychology.

[Zeldor]

There was some talk about RAND format before, it needs to be adjusted a bit And recruitable thug/SC nations seem to have an advantage.

Anyway, my comment from Mictlan perspective [and rant about Ermor's behaviour]:

It was really obvious for some time that Jotun is running away with the game - some easy victories over weak neighbours + his superior nation [at least over Mictlan].

And it was really clear who Jotun player is - even QM knew that when he was subbed out. For everyone else it should have been obvious that it's at least a vet.

Ermor got some easy victories and then was just sitting and making undead. He could have taken BL when I was acquiring MAchaka + Vanheim. Or he could have attacked me then, when I was fighting 2 enemies. But he was sitting and doing nothing.

Meanwhile Jotun was finishing AI Arco off and what Ermor did? Move armies to my border. Sure, I somehow understand his reasoning, but whole idea was wrong from the beginning.

Situation was that:
BL and Pan being 2 lesser powers, fighting each other. And Jotun with massive army, after Arco conquest, just on their border, 2 turns from BL caps... Some people noticed it. I moved armies in, to block Jotun. So did C'tis.

I can say only good things about C'tis here. He did not give up in tough war with Pyth. He won it, paying huge price. And he refused to give up, even knowing that he had no chances to win. He wanted to make sure that no one gets an easy win. HE blocked BL and Pan caps from easy grabbing. He had armies on Jotun border, ready for action.

Anyway, Squirreloid made even more abd assumptions, deciding to go to war with me. He knew I have D9 bless, so Undead Mastery guaranteed. He knew about flambeus thugs. He knew about nasty communions. He knew about Tlaloques. He knew about my indy mages. All that makes it that attack really stupid move.

There was no way that Alpine Joe can stop Jotun, or at least slow him down enough. It was obvious that me and Ermor fighting pretty much give Jotun a victory. So I never planned to attack Ermor - but I could not attack Jotun with Ermor armies constantly on my border [even though they faced only PD - can I send better sign when I have 1k undead on my border?].

So pretty much what Meglobob said. I don't know if Jotun would be stopped [BoT would hurt me a lot], but I consider just helping him this way a bit lame and unnecessery.

I was most of the time against calling the game with result other than a draw. Jotun had no way of winning in reasonable timeframe, unless someone helps him [by playing sub-par]. And Ermor did, so I changed my mind and agreed for calling the game. I am pretty sure I'd win the war, but TC would fall down faster. And Jotun would just grab 2 VPs from weakened Ermor - as they'd be the easiest VPs around [and owned by someone who proved to be making tactical mistakes]. I really hoped that it'd end in soem final battles, where someone has to prove that he deserved a victory. Now it feels like it's victory because other players got bored with the game and Micah refused to accept a draw [it's hard to blame him for that though].