NZ M10 tank busters

[DRG]

Dig around and see what you come up with for the Archer

Don

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by DRG

Dig around and see what you come up with for the Archer

Do you want me to look for a NZ Archer or an Aussie or NZ Archer?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

Do you want me to look for a NZ Archer or an Aussie or NZ Archer?

Yes, just to confirm they were in use and if yes, when

Don

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by DRG

Yes, just to confirm they were in use and if yes, when

Don

One of my local libraries has a book about NZ armour in Italy. I'll pick it up later. I'm not sure whether I can help with the Aussies.

[redcoat2]

I’ve had a look through Jeffrey Plowman’s book about the NZ 2nd Division in Italy. I’m 99% certain that the New Zealanders didn’t use the Archer there. As for the Australians, I don’t have any books about their armour as such. I don’t think they had the Archer though. AFAIK they didn’t have any ground units in Europe at the time the Archer was used – and I don’t think they or the New Zealanders would have used it in the SW Pacific. I had a quick look at some Australian websites and I couldn’t find anything. Perhaps someone else knows more?

The Plowman book confirms that the 7th Anti-tank Regiment received 3-inch M10s in June 1944 and used them in combat in July. It also uses the photos of a NZ 17-pdr M10 that I posted above. Unfortunately it does not say when the 17-pdr M10s were introduced. It might have been October 1944 because the Regiment was reorganised at that time. This diagram shows a Battery sometime after the reorganisation.



The M10s and towed 17-pdrs were in Troops of four guns. The diagram seems to show a 17-pdr M10 (gun C2) with three 3-inch M10s.

When I was looking through the armoured units in the book I noticed that the New Zealanders used Shermans up-gunned with 17-pdrs. I would therefore like to suggest a couple more possible updates for the New Zealand OOB: (1) bring forward the availability start date for the VC Firefly (spob15/ Unit 025) and (2) add the Sherman Hybrid IC (spob07/ Unit 302).

The Plowman book says that the VC Firefly was “first received around October 1944.” They were originally issued to Squadron HQs. The book also says that the Sherman Hybrid IC was used before the VC Firefly “late in 1944” - without being more specific.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

I’ve had a look through Jeffrey Plowman’s book about the NZ 2nd Division in Italy. I’m 99% certain that the New Zealanders didn’t use the Archer there. As for the Australians, I don’t have any books about their armour as such. I don’t think they had the Archer though. AFAIK they didn’t have any ground units in Europe at the time the Archer was used – and I don’t think they or the New Zealanders would have used it in the SW Pacific. I had a quick look at some Australian websites and I couldn’t find anything. Perhaps someone else knows more?

The Archer issue is turning into quite the little research project. So far I have not been able to find any source that says the Archer was used by anyone else but the Brits and the Egyptians but we have it used in a number of nations in both SPWW2 and SPMBT and I cannot just assume whoever put them there in the first place was wrong so the search for information goes on. One source says it stayed in limited service with the Brits until near the end of the 1940's which throws the 12/45 end date in SPWW2 we have now into doubt.

That said I just found a source that lists the Archer as used by the Poles in Italy.




Don

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by DRG

The Archer issue is turning into quite the little research project. So far I have not been able to find any source that says the Archer was used by anyone else but the Brits and the Egyptians but we have it used in a number of nations in both SPWW2 and SPMBT and I cannot just assume whoever put them there in the first place was wrong so the search for information goes on. One source says it stayed in limited service with the Brits until near the end of the 1940's which throws the 12/45 end date in SPWW2 we have now into doubt.

That said I just found a source that lists the Archer as used by the Poles in Italy.

Don

I have only seen British, Polish and Egyptian Archers - although I haven't really searched for others. I’m not sure whether the Egyptians were even supposed to have them in any case. When I was working in Cairo a local told me that the British dumped some Archers in the desert and that years later the Egyptians came along and restored them.

British and American Tanks of WWII: The complete illustrated history of British, American & Commonwealth tanks, 1939-1945 says that the “Archer equipped anti-tank battalions of British armoured divisions in NW Europe from October 1944 onwards. It remained in service until the mid fifties with the British Army, and Archers were also supplied to several other armies in post-war years.” It does not mention any other users during WW2 - including the Poles (7th Anti-Tank Regt., II Polish Corps) who used them in Italy - or specify which countries got them after the war.

Going back to the NZ armoured units in Italy I would like to make another suggestion for spob15: add the Sherman III (spob07/ Unit 303) to the NZ OOB. The Plowman book seems to show that the Sherman III was the standard tank used by the NZ 4th Armored Brigade. The brigade was in Italy from October/November 1943 onwards.