OT: but Mr. Architect, why can't you make a perfect world?

[Omnirizon]

...We tried that Neo, you all died.

just as the Architect tells Neo in the sequel to the Matrix, NetLogo models predict that in a perfect world, everything dies.

* go to: http://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/
* download NetLogo
* click on 'File' then 'Models Library'
* open the 'Biology' folder
* choose the 'Wolf-Sheep Predation' model
* set grass growth time to 0 (ie. infinite resources).
* run.
* everything dies.

basically, with infinite resources, the wolf population reaches a critical mass such that wolves are able to eat sheep faster than sheep can reproduce, and once all the sheep are dead the wolves die. Only the grass grows on.

Even with sheep reproduction rate at max, and wolf reproduction rate at minimum, this happens; it just takes longer. This is because there is never hunger to kill off excess wolves, and so they just continue to populate until they can eat sheep quicker than sheep can breed.

Ironically, it is limits on sheep's resources that saves their own lives.

[Illuminated One]

A perfect world has no wolves.

[Omnirizon]

that wouldn't be a perfect world for wolves then :P

also, there get to be so many sheep that the time it takes the computer to process all the sheep will approach infinity, reflecting what happens whenever anything can reproduce unchecked: it gets really croweded, and that's no fun for anyone.

[Illuminated One]

No seriously, you can't define a "perfect world" as one with only unlimited grass growth etc.

If you are going at the Gnostic/Theodizee (how can god exist&be good&be allmighty when there is suffering?), which the Matrix is imo about (I mean is there a difference if reality is governed by lines of code or freaky physical laws? The core seems to be the feeling that the world is run by a unconcerned or even malevolent power)

The perfect world is where no suffering exists. So there are no predators, diseases or whatever that might cause a sheep to feel bad, probably it wouldn't even need grass so sheep can't get hungry. (*)
You can argue that such a world can not exist since suffering is a necessity of life and this is the best world possible. But I seriously doubt that this world would fall apart if it was only slightly better (like for example I hadn't stubbed my toe just now). Anyone who wants to solve the Theodizee should prove that this world couldn't exist were it not for my pain.


(*) This world has to be designed from the goal of course. Every problem that might there be with unlimited sheep or whatever has to be treated as a problem already solved by the architect.
It's just an hypothetical idea after all

[Tolkien]

Silly Omni. If it were really an infinite amount of sheep, having an infinite amount of wolves would mean absolutely nothing. Yay for theoretical math!

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Silly Omni. If it were really an infinite amount of sheep, having an infinite amount of wolves would mean absolutely nothing. Yay for theoretical math!

yest but they are countably infinite, and since with infinite resources there is no way for wolves to die (from hunger of lack of sheep), only sheep can die (by being eaten by wolves). so eventually, wolf population will reach the critical mass needed to kill sheep quicker than they can breed.

[Tolkien]

But would not wolves eventually die infinitely due to old age? Even if this were not the case, how can something possibly be countably infinite, when infinite is by definition uncountable?

[Agema]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

basically, with infinite resources...

In other words, it's not the real world, then.

Obvious issues:

If sheep become sufficiently scarce, wolves have trouble finding them. Consequently, wolves will end up hungry: firstly they'll end up fighting other wolves for hunting territory and effectively cull themselves, or as they starve become unable to chase sheep effectively and die anyway.

Furthermore, you have to imagine population migration. Imagine a two-province island. The wolves eat all the sheep in one province, and either starve or move to the other sector. Either way, that sector becomes wolf-free. Surviving sheep from the second sector migrate into the wolf-free sector and flourish, and when the wolves realise the sheep are back in the sector they cleared out, they move back in, and so they go back and forth.

[lch]

I dream of a perfect world of grass. And for grass.

[vfb]

Clever sheep would not set their reproduction rate to max, they would also set their own growth time to zero. Then you get infinite grass, infinite sheep, and a whole lot of happy wolves.