MP: Setsumi - Come for the game, stay for the drama!

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Quitty, you just perfectly described the very behaviour that turns a 'very unbalanced' LA Ermor into a 'absulutely unbalanced' LA Ermor. You just cant 'mind your business' when there is LA Ermor in the game. If you do, you lose. But you dont care; too bad, because this ruined this game.
I didnt want you to fight Ermor to give ME an edge. I wanted you to join EVERYONES war against Ermor to try and stop him, and then see what you can do next. I already clashed with Ermor, so did Abyssia. Bite him from behind, do SOMETHING. Gosh, unite against me with other survivors when Ermor is down; do some thinking! If you dont want to win, if you dont want to even TRY, why do you even join games?!

While I agree in somewhat same things as SciencePro, I wouldn't be as radical in my words, but essentially he distilled the point I would've been saying. Diplomacy wins wars once the nations are of sufficient size, not ranting about things.

Still, pointers. I like arranging things into numbers or such, it seems.
1) Haven't you been "minding your own business"? I haven't seen you attack Ermor before now. I've seen you state over and over how imbalanced LA Ermor is, and I agree that in this point Ermor is a very very good nation. So would be Niefelheim, or Hinnom, or Sauromatia in similar position. Or Marignon.
2) I agree with Zeldor, LA Marignon should have absolutely no trouble with LA Ermor if played in anti-ermorian way (holy pyre, h3 recruit anywhere priests, excellent line holders against undead chaff - royal guards). I was certain Zeldor would be gone after Marignon started attacking him, and I started hearing stuff about Seraphs, but alas, no. Either Zeldor has some tricks up his sleeve I do not know of and deserves to win anyway since it'd have to be something awesomely good, or the player for Marignon didn't fully realize the potential of his nation.
3) I could do damage to Ermor, but he could counter my forces easily enough. I could counter Ermors forces easily should he attack me. I've got counters for any SC's he could throw at me, and I have a counters for any chaff he could ever throw at me. The problem is that I wouldn't gain anything by attacking fully forted nation, it'd take 2-5 turns to take each fort, and I could probably maintain reasonable siege against 4 forts per turn. Now, what does ermor lose with a castle? Gem income, which he doesn't much need, and which I don't much need. He wouldn't lose any income. I wouldn't gain any. He could take potshots with stealthy mages, teleporting SC's, longrange spells, and I would lose troops, he'd lose few SC's and mages eventually, but the point is that he wouldn't be throwing anything critical at me, unless in sufficient masses to really crush the force. Basically it boils down to being an horrible attrition war, which neither of us would enjoy or gain anything out of.
4) I never said I wouldn't be playing for winning the game, but when the situation is that there is no feasible way of winning the game, I do not play for attempting to win it anymore. I play for having fun. If I have a reasonable chance to win, I push for it.
5) I already stated that I should have attacked Ermor in the very early game. I made a mistake there. I might very well be in top nations now had I done it. I also might as well be very well conquered by you or Mictlan or heck, Patala. I just had an easy way to expand south and I took it. That took the first ~40 turns for me.
6) I've played with LA Ermor in a MP game, actually still am, but I'm not a major force. They have abysmal research (in midgame ~quarter of normal/high researcher rp-income) unless they get very lucky with sites. They have good mages, but they have very limited amount of them. They also have literally thousands of free troops, but they are of absolutely no use against a proper counter for them. In late game it is definitely a good nation that just requires loads and loads of micromanagement to be ran well.
7) Attacking Ermor now would give you a definite edge, and no-one else. Period.

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?

[Ossa]

@Kuritza, Quitti and Zeldor:

1)
During the middle game, when I first declared war on Ermor, I was winning. I was pushing him further and further with my H3 priests, holy pyres, untouchable def 19 royal guards and everything. Especially when I managed to cast a prot 30+ royal elemental to act as a blocker.

I managed to go the whole way up to Turku (sp?) with my army until...

... until Science took over, the old player forgot to teach him properly the existing NAPs and Zeldor talked him into attacking my.

When all of your lands are islands surrounded by Ryleth and suddenly that NAPed nation goes on a rampage in your lands you cannot leave your armies fighting Ermor.


If it wouldnt be for Ryleth, I'd have weakened Ermor enough before he summened his SCs. When Ryleth attacked me, Ermor again offered me a NAP, just to stress this point.

LA Marignon would have won a 1:1 war with LA Ermor, even with me playing it. Unfortunatly it wasnt a 1:1 war.


2)
The sea troll was a last ditch efford to clean some of Ermor's water provinces in the vain hope that Ryleth would take them before Ermor comes in again. Didnt work.


3)

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?

I guess he's implying that while it is fun if Ermor wins, it would be even more fun if all living nations would unite against a common enemy.

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Ossa

... until Science took over, the old player forgot to teach him properly the existing NAPs and Zeldor talked him into attacking my.

True enough, but such is diplomacy. I could have attacked you too, but that again would have made Ermor easily the most powerful nation. R'lyeh jumped the chance and now Kuritza is ranting about how Ermor is imbalanced and never again shall he play the game with Ermor and so on. I didn't want that. I was very much against Ermor around 10-15 turns ago, had plenty of armies on his border, and was ready to attack, then the fiasco with the staling occured. Basically what happened was that everyone was *****ing about everything, so I decided to stand back and let actions speak for themselves in-game for other players - so far I know that Man has attacked Ermor, and supposedly Abysia too.

I guess he's implying that while it is fun if Ermor wins, it would be even more fun if all living nations would unite against a common enemy.

And make him the top nation? How would that exactly change the situation? Then me or you would've needed to start a rantfest about how Man is overpowered and must be attacked, or I will never play a game with Man again since he's had time to grow with good strategic choices.

I like the new thread title by the way

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Quitti

And make him the top nation? How would that exactly change the situation? Then me or you would've needed to start a rantfest about how Man is overpowered and must be attacked, or I will never play a game with Man again since he's had time to grow with good strategic choices.

I like the new thread title by the way

Are are nuts?

I am not LA Ermor. I dont have thousands of free units rising from their graves every turn. And I would surely suffer very, VERY heavy losses by spearheading the attack on Ermor's hub of power, while you and Rlyeh could get some Ermorian lands (he cant really defend against us all) and grow stronger.
And yes, then you could unite against me. I've seen this happen, in games with, you know... experienced players. Leaders come and go, and this is what makes Dominions fun. Turtling and complaining how you cant win anyway wont teach you anything.

... nothing will.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Quitti

Still, pointers. I like arranging things into numbers or such, it seems.

Pointers from you. How cute.

Originally Posted by Quitti

1) Haven't you been "minding your own business"? I haven't seen you attack Ermor before now. I've seen you state over and over how imbalanced LA Ermor is, and I agree that in this point Ermor is a very very good nation. So would be Niefelheim, or Hinnom, or Sauromatia in similar position. Or Marignon.

I had NO opportunity to attack Ermor. I had no border with him, and still working on getting one (Caelums castles are between me and him, I just stop his hordes by sending SCs while my armies siege castles).

Originally Posted by Quitti

2) I agree with Zeldor, LA Marignon should have absolutely no trouble with LA Ermor if played in anti-ermorian way (holy pyre, h3 recruit anywhere priests, excellent line holders against undead chaff - royal guards).

He did. But Ermor has TOO MUCH spawn. For a while, trivial tactics you described seemed to work, but then rigor mortis, darkness (not sure Zeldor had to use it, but still) and Ermor's own SCs changed that.

Originally Posted by Quitti

I was certain Zeldor would be gone after Marignon started attacking him, and I started hearing stuff about Seraphs, but alas, no. Either Zeldor has some tricks up his sleeve I do not know of and deserves to win anyway since it'd have to be something awesomely good, or the player for Marignon didn't fully realize the potential of his nation.

Zeldor plays better than Ossa, for sure. But one cant fight overgrown LA Ermor alone, and Ossa asked for help, repeatedly. I guaranteed you and Caelum that I wont attack you if you attack Ermor, and even promised SC support.
Speaking of being nice and diplomatic... you just ignored me and turtled. Ermor is scary, ha ha.

Originally Posted by Quitti

3) I could do damage to Ermor, but he could counter my forces easily enough. I could counter Ermors forces easily should he attack me. I've got counters for any SC's he could throw at me, and I have a counters for any chaff he could ever throw at me. The problem is that I wouldn't gain anything by attacking fully forted nation, it'd take 2-5 turns to take each fort, and I could probably maintain reasonable siege against 4 forts per turn. Now, what does ermor lose with a castle? Gem income, which he doesn't much need, and which I don't much need. He wouldn't lose any income. I wouldn't gain any. He could take potshots with stealthy mages, teleporting SC's, longrange spells, and I would lose troops, he'd lose few SC's and mages eventually, but the point is that he wouldn't be throwing anything critical at me, unless in sufficient masses to really crush the force. Basically it boils down to being an horrible attrition war, which neither of us would enjoy or gain anything out of.

Lots of crap.
Ermor needs land to get spawn, and gems. Ossa needed help. By fighting Ermor you'd give Ossa some breathing space, and most importantly, if you dont stop Ermor, whatever the cost, he kills you. I told that before, nobody believed me. I turned out to be right, but you are too stubborn to accept it.
Oh, and about you being able to defend against Ermor.... What a sad joke.

Originally Posted by Quitti

4) I never said I wouldn't be playing for winning the game, but when the situation is that there is no feasible way of winning the game, I do not play for attempting to win it anymore. I play for having fun. If I have a reasonable chance to win, I push for it.

You lost your chance to win this game as soon as Ermor started growing so fast and his neighbours, including you, didnt do anything about it.

Originally Posted by Quitti

5) I already stated that I should have attacked Ermor in the very early game. I made a mistake there. I might very well be in top nations now had I done it. I also might as well be very well conquered by you or Mictlan or heck, Patala. I just had an easy way to expand south and I took it. That took the first ~40 turns for me.

I already stated that I promised not to attack anyone who attacks Ermor.

Originally Posted by Quitti

6) I've played with LA Ermor in a MP game, actually still am, but I'm not a major force.

Yep, Ermor takes skill to play right, just like any other nation.

Originally Posted by Quitti

7) Attacking Ermor now would give you a definite edge, and no-one else. Period.

Ganging on Ermor gives everyone an edge. And not trying to stop the leader is game-ruining.

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?[/quote]
I am saying that watching Ermor defeat everyone one by one and not even trying to win is not fun. What you do is much worse than just going AI.

Ok, now thats it. Zeldor can declare himself a winner, if his conscience allows it after everything that happened here.

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Pointers from you. How cute.

Thank you for being constructive.

I had NO opportunity to attack Ermor. I had no border with him, and still working on getting one (Caelums castles are between me and him, I just stop his hordes by sending SCs while my armies siege castles).

I offered you a way to attack him/said I was open for such negotiations. You did not take the chance. Do not blame me for this.

He did. But Ermor has TOO MUCH spawn. For a while, trivial tactics you described seemed to work, but then rigor mortis, darkness (not sure Zeldor had to use it, but still) and Ermor's own SCs changed that.

Yes. All true. With enough chaff to fill the battlefield, Ermor could very well beat pretty much anything. But that requires that he'd pool everything he has into few single armies, which he has troubles to do (lots of MM, ferrying troops, nothing undoable though). With the forces I saw battling (Again, I did not see everything, but I did see a lot) Ermor certainly did not have several thousand undead per every fight. By the time Ermor has Rigor Mortis, Marignon should very easily have Solar Brilliance (counters darkness too, from what I remember) very easily. This is only one of many counters for those. Also, Mind Hunts. I believe you've heard of them.

Zeldor plays better than Ossa, for sure. But one cant fight overgrown LA Ermor alone, and Ossa asked for help, repeatedly. I guaranteed you and Caelum that I wont attack you if you attack Ermor, and even promised SC support.

Again true, but I had no way of knowing if you'd keep your word. In addition there was still aggressive mictlan south of me, and abysia south of him and north of me.

Speaking of being nice and diplomatic... you just ignored me and turtled. Ermor is scary, ha ha.

I fought (somewhat single-sided, I admit) wars, after which I could've struck Ermor with very little effect, since I didn't have anything to counter (immortal) SC's. I got that counter ready around 5-10 turns ago, which is too late.

Lots of crap.
Ermor needs land to get spawn, and gems. Ossa needed help. By fighting Ermor you'd give Ossa some breathing space, and most importantly, if you dont stop Ermor, whatever the cost, he kills you. I told that before, nobody believed me. I turned out to be right, but you are too stubborn to accept it.
Oh, and about you being able to defend against Ermor.... What a sad joke.

Like stated, against a battlefield full of undead (meaning 2k-3k+ per fight) I'd struggle, probably lose too. I have national access to d3 mages, w3 mages and s3 mages. All very well capable of countering hordes of chaff, and sc's. Out of his dominion I can fight against his immortal stuff, inside it there's not much point.

You lost your chance to win this game as soon as Ermor started growing so fast and his neighbours, including you, didnt do anything about it.

True, Like I said, I should've done something earlier, which led ultimately into me losing.

I already stated that I promised not to attack anyone who attacks Ermor.

Again, words. Promises can be broken. It would've been counterproductive to you attack me while I was attacking Ermor, since it would've strengthened your position considerably, I admit that. Which again leaves my southern/northern borders, and R'lyeh whom with I've had absolutely no contact regarding to anything, peace or war.

Yep, Ermor takes skill to play right, just like any other nation.

Exactly. Zeldor seems to have done very well in my opinion. I did not, and I know why. I've learned from the experience. Have you learned from this?

Ganging on Ermor gives everyone an edge. And not trying to stop the leader is game-ruining.

Except that the last (strong) nation standing would be you. I do not know what Abysia has, so I will not comment on that. I suppose he has some fire kings and possibly unique blood summons though. All very well counterable.

I am saying that watching Ermor defeat everyone one by one and not even trying to win is not fun. What you do is much worse than just going AI.

Ok, now thats it. Zeldor can declare himself a winner, if his conscience allows it after everything that happened here.

So, you are after all saying that the game cannot be fun if Ermor wins due he playing his nation well.

With you admitting that you cannot defeat Ermor, I believe he's the rightful winner. I'm ready to concede the game for him should he want to end this. I still would prefer if you'd fight on to actually see what happens.