Exploit question

[Kuritza]

It doesnt reduce your options, it increases them dramatically - at the cost of, yes, being forced to make gemgens. It just silly to say that having more gems narrows your available options, so I wont even explain why its wrong. The only thing gemgens were reducing was the impact of national troops on the lategame. Which was a GREAT thing because national troops are simply not balanced against each other, with gemgens in mind.

And I dont want to make my own balance mods and advertise them - this is exactly the kind of thing that killed Dominions for me, and I dont feel like being a reanimator. I just say that its wrong when several players remove an important part of the game they dont like - for everyone.
As for the rest of community supporting this change... well, I live in Russia and I can tell you much about such things. Our whole history is about weird things being supported by the crowd.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

I just say that its wrong when several players remove an important part of the game they dont like - for everyone.

They didn't. They removed it for themselves and posted the mod up. Others then chose to use it, or not. That's the essence of all mods. So again, how is that wrong?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

It just silly to say that having more gems narrows your available options, so I wont even explain why its wrong.

No it's not. If clams are available for mass production, and if the game will last more than the time for their cost to be paid off, then any other use of gems is suboptimal. If one option is clearly the best choice, then the other options might as well not exist. Who would make two water elemental bottles when you could instead make one clam of pearls?

The water elemental bottle also functions as a gem generator, producing the equivalent of one water gem in every battle where it shows up. It's just one that needs to be risked on the battlefield for ten turns to recoup its investment.

I just say that its wrong when several players remove an important part of the game they dont like - for everyone.

Nobody did that. You are free to play whatever version of the game that you want. But the thing is that it's always been the newer, less experienced players who wanted gem generators to remain in the game in nearly every argument over them for the past five or six years. In my experience, almost anybody who's played enough games to see the effect that they can have ends up arguing against them. And eventually, enough people have played in enough games that have been ended in ridiculous situations because of limitless gem income that people don't want to play those games anymore.

[Gandalf Parker]

Everything is a sliding scale, and can be taken to an extreme. Balance is only one of those sliding scales. I dont think there ever will be a complete agreement on balance. People have their own preferences for how much balance is good. Extreme balance would just be, well, chess.

Hmm....
I wonder if anyone has played a game with one of the mods that gives everyone the same nation? And using CBM of course. That might be an interesting test of skill. Not really Dominions but interesting.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by Graeme Dice

No it's not. If clams are available for mass production, and if the game will last more than the time for their cost to be paid off, then any other use of gems is suboptimal. If one option is clearly the best choice, then the other options might as well not exist. Who would make two water elemental bottles when you could instead make one clam of pearls?

I'd have to quibble with that, though I agree overall. If you win battles/survive/take more territory because of those bottles water/Frost Brands/whatever, then they may not be suboptimal. Clams are optimal in the long run, but other investments may have a much shorter payoff, or a shorter window of opportunity (Water Queens?)
There's an opportunity cost to investing in the long term.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

It doesnt reduce your options, it increases them dramatically - at the cost of, yes, being forced to make gemgens. It just silly to say that having more gems narrows your available options, so I wont even explain why its wrong.

On the one hand, from a decision theory perspective, removing an option which dominates all other options can increase the *interesting* set of options and thus the strategic complexity of the game.

One the other hand, producing gem gens does not dominate all other options because there are times (i.e. you're under attack) when making more gem gens is a bad investment, just as there are times in Bloons Tower Defense 4 when buying more banana farms is a bad investment because you need the firepower NOW.

On the gripping hand, I personally hate clams even in SP. I feel oddly compelled to forge them because they're so clearly optimal most of the time--I can only imagine how much worse the temptation/pressure is in MP. I've got mixed feelings about bloodstones--I wish there were a way to remove only the gemgen aspect.

-Max