Can someone tell me about Machaka?

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

That is not at all what I am saying. With a N9 bless, 3-4 spiders take any indy. And with the blessing I proposed you can easily afford

O3, r1, h2-3, g3, magic 3, luck x.

Each turn you can build an expansion team of 3-4 spiders and a bless monkey.

In fact, since you start with a priest and you can make a prophet you have a leg up. The spider commander prophetized will solo most provinces.

Use the starting troops to patrol, and set the tax rate at 120.
Your income most of the time will be roughly 600 or so.

If you go light on your initial expansion teams (3 spiders) your cost is less than 300.

This means that on turn 3-4 you easily have enough money to build your first fort.

I may be misremembering, however, my remembrance says that sorceresses are 190 for 7 rp. Regardless, you need the second fort to make the eyes of the lord (unit with patrol bonus?). Churn them out to lead troops, and to patrol.

Machaka units (other than spiders) are all resource intensive, and fairly uniformly, crap. However, your spiders are pretty darn good against thugs and SC's.

If you push forts, (while not interfering with your regular expansion) you ameliorate the glaring weakness of machaka pd.

Like I said v, I've got no problem hitting 15 with this strategy, with a 2nd fort built and third on the way in the first year.

What strategy are you promulgating? (and sorry I came across snippy).

You are paying far too much for too little gain. With the scales you have there, you should be able to hit 15+ provinces, as well as a couple of castles, the first year without any bless whatsoever.

I think Black Hunters are generally underestimated here on the boards - probably because past incarnations of CBM made the price discrepancy between them and ordinary spiders so large - but their strength lies mainly in the opening game. Machaka really has no problem there, so investing in a N9 bless that gives you little afterwards is not the best idea.

About 6 Black Hunters without any bless can take practically any indy, pretty much the same as your 3-4 N9 expansion parties. Add in a minor N4 and possibly E4 (the latter helps against largish numbers and might be something you want anyway) and you can shave off a couple of hunters.

Do not get me wrong, you will of course get a better expansion rate with N9 than without, but once the indies are gone, the benefit of the bless will be greatly reduced. Human oponents really do not find it much harder to deal with N9 hunters than unblessed ones.


Also, Machakan troops are certainly not resource intensive. Apart from the hoplite, the regular troops are all very resource cheap. The combination of very cheap archers and good ability to cast Flame Arrows is excellent. Since Machaka has access to both the nature and earth protection spells as well as Iron Bane, cheap troops without armour has an occasional use. Combine with Curse of Stones for more fun.

Lastly Sorceresses have f1e1d1 + 10%fedn and cost 110gp, so 110 for 5rp is more accurate.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

You are paying far too much for too little gain. With the scales you have there, you should be able to hit 15+ provinces, as well as a couple of castles, the first year without any bless whatsoever.

I think Black Hunters are generally underestimated here on the boards - probably because past incarnations of CBM made the price discrepancy between them and ordinary spiders so large - but their strength lies mainly in the opening game. Machaka really has no problem there, so investing in a N9 bless that gives you little afterwards is not the best idea.

About 6 Black Hunters without any bless can take practically any indy, pretty much the same as your 3-4 N9 expansion parties. Add in a minor N4 and possibly E4 (the latter helps against largish numbers and might be something you want anyway) and you can shave off a couple of hunters.

Do not get me wrong, you will of course get a better expansion rate with N9 than without, but once the indies are gone, the benefit of the bless will be greatly reduced. Human oponents really do not find it much harder to deal with N9 hunters than unblessed ones.


Also, Machakan troops are certainly not resource intensive. Apart from the hoplite, the regular troops are all very resource cheap. The combination of very cheap archers and good ability to cast Flame Arrows is excellent. Since Machaka has access to both the nature and earth protection spells as well as Iron Bane, cheap troops without armour has an occasional use. Combine with Curse of Stones for more fun.

Lastly Sorceresses have f1e1d1 + 10%fedn and cost 110gp, so 110 for 5rp is more accurate.

I couldn't really disagree with you more. I'd really have to say.. *try it*.

I don't get the n9 blessing for the 14 regen. I don't get it for the additional protection.

I get it for the 99 morale. Machakan morale is not great. Berserk spiders will take, about 1 time in 4 provinces that non berserk units will not.

With small units ... losing even one unit will put you in the circumstance where you are taking morale checks or quit the field.

I get it - so you can expand with groups of 2-4 spiders - instead of 4-8. Which lets you send out an expansion party a turn instead of 2 in the first 4 turns.

So I view the N9 as critical especially if you wish to expand with units of 2-3 spiders.

The N9 bless is not what the opponent will have a problem dealing with. The issue is that you are sending out one expansion party a turn, *and not taking any losses*.

Whereas most non giant races will take attrition losses. This will mean on average that you will have about 25% more troops than an average nation, more experience as well as more provinces when you finally meet.


As for the resource intensive: I was thinking spiders and too lazy to fix the error.

As for sorceresses: Not with the specific scales I specified. Magic 3 = +2 rp.

I like earth - an minor earth bless works great, and I like it with the fetish (or other gods). I was just suggesting an alternate to the fetish.

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I couldn't really disagree with you more. I'd really have to say.. *try it*.

I don't get the n9 blessing for the 14 regen. I don't get it for the additional protection.

I get it for the 99 morale. Machakan morale is not great. Berserk spiders will take, about 1 time in 4 provinces that non berserk units will not.

With small units ... losing even one unit will put you in the circumstance where you are taking morale checks or quit the field.

I get it - so you can expand with groups of 2-4 spiders - instead of 4-8. Which lets you send out an expansion party a turn instead of 2 in the first 4 turns.

So I view the N9 as critical especially if you wish to expand with units of 2-3 spiders.

The N9 bless is not what the opponent will have a problem dealing with. The issue is that you are sending out one expansion party a turn, *and not taking any losses*.

Whereas most non giant races will take attrition losses. This will mean on average that you will have about 25% more troops than an average nation, more experience as well as more provinces when you finally meet.

First, I want to make two things clear, so that we understand each other.

1. I have tried it. I would not be making the claims I do, if I had not.

2. I assume that the game parameters are normal, e.g. indy strength is 5.


That said, I certainly cannot get N9 to work as well as you advertise. An expansion party of 2 spiders does not work very well at all. Even keeping to what seems to be easier indies, you will lose a spider more often than not. Essentially, such parties can capture one province. 4 N4 spiders perform a lot better. 4 spiders without any bless also perform better than the 2 N9 spiders as long as you keep to easier indies.

3 N9 spiders can take pretty much the same provinces as 4 N4. Thanks to the berserk the N9 spiders will take some provinces that the N4 ones would lose, but these are the same provinces where you lose a spider. I also have a slightly higher attrition rate among the N9 spiders, but it is slight enough that I am willing to write it off as natural variance. The N9 party performs a bit better than the N4 party.

4 N9 spiders can, with very few exceptions, take the same provinces as 6 N4, but with a significantly higher attrition rate, so the latter group clearly performs better.

8 Black Hunters without any bless whatsoever perform better across the board than 4 N9 do.


You will definitely lose spiders - even with N9 - if you keep sending them out in groups of 2-4. Same goes if you just send out groups of 4. If you want to go without losses (apart from really bad luck, of course), you are going to have to send out groups of 5-6. If you go with N4 you need 7-8.

If you have some special trick that allows you better performance than this, I can try it out, but the above is what I can manage consistently.

Again, I want to make clear that the N9 bless certainly makes the Black Hunters perform better than without it. The investment is, however, not worth the cost in my opinion. The difference between N4 and N9 is at least 160 points. You could spend 80 of those on production and thereby get an extra spider or two per turn, which makes your expansion very close to N9, and you still have 80 points left to spend.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Amorphous

Again, I want to make clear that the N9 bless certainly makes the Black Hunters perform better than without it. The investment is, however, not worth the cost in my opinion. The difference between N4 and N9 is at least 160 points. You could spend 80 of those on production and thereby get an extra spider or two per turn, which makes your expansion very close to N9, and you still have 80 points left to spend.

I don't believe there is any difference on the scales. Check my scales settings.. do you really want to buy luck with order?

with an imprisoned N3 pretender, n9 = 6 picks, 21*7 = 147 points.
n4 = 7 points. Difference is 140.

However, if you are taking a rainbow crone (another favorite of mine), n4= 42 points. Difference = 105, plus the cost of the lord of fertility.

As for .. tricks. You absolutely do have to choose provinces differently. Small numbers of cavalry, are easy spider prey.
anything with small damage out put... wolf warriors. Are good choices. Provinces with three types of troops.


with a non human blesser (ie spider) you don't care about most archers.

Anyway, we agree on most details. After thats its play style...

[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I don't believe there is any difference on the scales. Check my scales settings.. do you really want to buy luck with order?

I do not understand your answer at all. As far as I can tell your scales involved production 1, so going two steps further would be production 3.

Now even apart from that, 160 points is 160 points however you spend it. Luck and order is not a bad combination when you have a sizeable empire, which Machaka should achieve rather quickly. Going from imprisoned to sleeping is just 100 points and nets you about 2 more years of active pretender. Sleeping to awake is 150 points.

160 points is a lot and any such investment should give you a lot, otherwise it is just a bad investment.

with an imprisoned N3 pretender, n9 = 6 picks, 21*7 = 147 points.
n4 = 7 points. Difference is 140.

However, if you are taking a rainbow crone (another favorite of mine), n4= 42 points. Difference = 105, plus the cost of the lord of fertility.

The base cost of magic pics is 8, not 7. You are probably confusing it with the base cost of dominion. 160 points is the minimum difference possible with Machaka. And that requires you to take the Lord of Fertility. Any other pretender and the difference get larger.

As for .. tricks. You absolutely do have to choose provinces differently. Small numbers of cavalry, are easy spider prey.
anything with small damage out put... wolf warriors. Are good choices. Provinces with three types of troops.


with a non human blesser (ie spider) you don't care about most archers.

Well, this does not differ significantly from how I do it, so my opinion remains the same.

What I will add is that you have incomplete intelligence during the expansion phase. This is bad for small numbers of spiders, because lots of troops, more or less regardless of which kind, present a very much increased risk of losing spiders.

If you send out parties of 4- Black Hunters, you will lose some of them, even if you keep away from what seems to be the harder indies.

Anyway, we agree on most details. After thats its play style...

Well, especially in CBM I prefer sloth 3. Spider Riders are good enough to quickly expand into most indies and groups of Black Hunters handle the rest. This gives me 15-20 provinces and a couple of castles the first year as well as giving me a lot more points to play with for the pretender.



Ink:
Evaluating Black Hunters through Spider Knights is not a good idea - they are very different. Just compare the performance of equally large groups of both of them to see what I mean.

I happen to agree that Black Hunters do not warrant any big bless. They manage quite well without any bless during expansion and they are very good deterrents against some rushes. Later in the game there are too many counters to them for them to be anything other than specialty units.