Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request

[wulfir]

Originally Posted by Snipey

The battle developed within Tskhinvali itself, whereas your arrows meet West of Tskhinvali.

Ah OK, so the Focal Point will be Tskhinvali itself...

Will there be any objectives outside the urban area?

[Snipey]

Originally Posted by Imp

Quite possibly Recon should be trimmed back or ignored completly they are doing just that. If they get caught in a fight quite likely to be seperate from the main force.
I may well be wrong here as a civillian but true recon is a seperate thing I think of the scouts we use in game as a squad trained to split & cover more ground.
More scouting for contact than true Recon who probably gave you the local & are now trying to figure out force makeup etc.
So thinking is might have left a few behind to keep an eye on but the rest have moved on.

That's most likely true, but since we're doing a mini-version of the entire war, I'll give both sides Recon, and let the leaders decide what to do with them. However, I will only give each side a single Recon Co, so they won't be able to affect the battle in a major way, and it's very feasible that 1 Recon Co for each side made it to Tskhinvali.

The Russians employed 2 Recon Battalions and 5 Recon Companies. Since this is a mini-map, I will simply use 1 Recon company to represent that. The Recon Company has 115 men, 4 BMP-2, 4 BRM-1K, 1BMP-1KSh, 1 R-145BM (or command vehicle) and 2 BTR-80.

HQ + Command vehicle - 8 men
1st Platoon - 6 units * 3 men on 2 BMP-2
2nd Platoon - 6 units * 3 men on 2 BMP-2
3rd Platoon - 6 units * 3 men on 2 BTR-80 (with AA Guns)
4 BRM-1K - 24 men
Support units - 25 men, BMP-1KSh

Good website for BRM-1K Specs, although I think they're already in our ORBATs. http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3360.html


For the Georgians, they had 4 Recon Co. of 101 men and 8 BTR-80, as well as a Recon Battalion of 1070 men. However most of the Recon Battalion units were manned by local militias. Taking into account what Imp suggested earlier, I propose giving the Georgians a single Recon Co of 101 men and 8 BTR-80. I am fairly sure that they also scout vehicles.

HQ + Command Vehicle - 8 men
1st Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80
2nd Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80
3rd Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80
4th Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80
Support units - 13 men (med + supply)

Originally Posted by wulfir

Ah OK, so the Focal Point will be Tskhinvali itself...

Will there be any objectives outside the urban area?

The task of the Georgians was to capture the city, the task of the Russians was to liberate it. On the one hand, I was tempted to say that there were some objectives outside of the city, such as the surrounding heights. But upon a closer examination of the map, I found that it was mostly flat. There were no objectives outside the city, except for those of military necessity, but I'm not finding any. If you are - let me know, and we can take a look, and get advice from the WinSPMBT community if the objectives are valuable enough. The main objective should definetely be the Capitol Building, Ossetia's "White House" if you will, where some of the government was still located when the fighting began.

Just think of it as a mini-Stalingrad.

[wulfir]

Originally Posted by Snipey

Just think of it as a mini-Stalingrad.

I'm a bit confused as to the actual layout of the game map.

Basically do you want a 200x160 urban map based on Thiskinvali or a map encompassing most of Ossetia..., shrunk to fit 200x160 size...

[Snipey]

Originally Posted by wulfir

I'm a bit confused as to the actual layout of the game map.

Basically do you want a 200x160 urban map based on Thiskinvali or a map encompassing most of Ossetia..., shrunk to fit 200x160 size...

A 200x160 urban map based on Tskhinvali. The city is anywhere from 7 to 12 kilometers, depending on how one measures the area, whereas the map is 80 kilometers, so still plenty of room for flanking, manuevering, arty placement, etc.




If you have Google Earth installed, you can get very good images of the area.

[Snipey]

Sorry about not posting this earlier, RL was really insane, but since Monday, I'm on a three week break. Don't know if I'll be gone for one of these three weeks on a field trip or not, but I managed to finish parts of the ORBAT, which is scaled 1 to 10

Russia + Ossetia:

1 Mechanised Infantry Battalion (501 men) to represent the 10 mech inf battalions, (2 from the 693rd, 2 from the 503rd, 1 from the 135th, 2 from the 70th, 2 from the 71st, and the first Ossetian mech inf bn. The battalion starts out on the Russian side, relatively close to the edge.

1 Regular Infantry Company with support(150 men) to represent the Peacekeeping Battalions of Russia (from 135th) and North Ossetia (nicknamed Alania in honor of the Alans), (1,000 men total) and the 1st Ossetian foot battalion (500 men). These units will start inside the city of Tskhinvali.

1 Composite Arty Bn (147 men) to represent the crews of the 136 arty guns, 38 rocket launchers. There are 32 MSTA-S, 80 Akatsiya (the ones with CG capability,) 12 Gvozdika, 12 D-30, 30 BM-21 Grads, 4 Smerch (BM-30) and 4 Uragan rocket launchers (BM-27). To represent all this, I am going to use 3 MSTA-S (15 men), 8 Akatsiya (32 men), 1 Gvozdika (4 men), 1 D-30 with MT-LB (10 men), 3 BM-21 (15 men) and 1 BM-30 (6 men). That's 17 guns and rocket launchers. That's 17 total, so I am going to give them 1 company (12 guns) and 1 battery (4 guns) support units, meaning 4 resupply trucks (8 men), 4 med trucks (8 men), 4 arty observers (24 men), (FOOs) 1 BMP KSh (9 men) and 1 Gaz-66 (26 men) truck with 24 infantry. My earlier gun estimate was incorrect. If anyone wants to, I can explain where all the arty came from.

1 Composite Tank Co (72 men) to represent 5 tank battalions /10. The Russians, (according to US satellite data, and this figure is corroborated by other research,) had 150 tanks. 10 T-55, 29 T-62, 81 T-72B, and 30 T-72BM. Representing this is easy: T-55 (starts inside the city), 3 T-62, 8 T-72B, 3 T-72BMs, with 46 tankers, as T-55 has 4, rest have 3. BMP-1KSh (9 men), BTR-80 (9 men), 2 MT-LB suppliers (4 men) and 2 med trucks (4 men). Tank battalions also have repair units, but these do not participate in battles.

1 Recon Company (115 men) to represent 11 recon companies who fought.

1 Communications Platoon (27 men) which can be represented by 3 BMP-1KSh, with mech inf.

1 Engineering Platoon (26 men) to represent the engineers who fought, which is basically an Engineer Platoon (24 men) on Gaz-66 truck.

Vostok-Zapad Platoon (33 men) they had 2 companies, so 1 platoon sums it up nicely

3 SpetzNaz Groups (137 men) Russians had about 1,000-1,200 SpN, and Ossetians had about an additional 300-350. Data on SpN is virtually impossible to get, but they came from the 10th and 22nd SpN brigades. Structure that was used is classified, so I figured I'd just use the groups found in the game. Additionally, 1 group starts in the city, and 2 other groups get a total of 10 BTR-80s. A group is 39 men, so three groups are 117 men, and BRT-80s have 2 drivers per car.

VDV Groups totaling 140 men I am still looking for VDV companies that might fit a structure similar to the one used in the ORBAT.

Militia 110 men Roughly 1,100 fought in South Ossetia's Volunteer Militia. Like any militia, some of these units were quite good, while others were inexperienced. I'm still trying to figure out the structure that I want to use here.

Other units possible, but unlikely They were additional supply units, but I figure we have enough supply and medical units as it is.

Totals: 1458 men


Georgian ORBAT:

1 Infantry Battalion (591 men) to represent forces of the 11th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 31st, 32nd, 33rd, 41st, 42nd, 43rd.

1 Infantry Company with better exp (169 men) to represent the 53rd (mostly mercs) and Naval Battalions.

Supporting units for the Bn and the Co

Arty Bn (slightly under 371 men) to represent 4 Arty Bns, and the Joint Arty BDE. Georgians had 72 D-30, 12 120-MM mortars, (assigned to arty bns not inf bns,) 11 MSTA-B, 12 Akatsiya, 24 Dana, 6 Pion, 16 BM-21 Grad, 12 GradLar, 8 RM-70, 2 BM-27. To represent this, I have 7 D-30, 1 MSTA-B, 1 Akatsiya, 2 Dana, 1 Pion, 2 BM-21 Grad, 1 GradLar, 1 RM-70.

Composite Tank-Mech Co (roughly 300 men) Georgia combined a reenforced mechanised infantry company with a tank battalion. Aside from four of these units, they also had a joint tank battalion of 60 tanks. The Georgian Tanks: 30 T-72 SIM-I, 60 Czech T-72s, 75 Ukrainian T-72s, 15 T-55s, represented by 3 T-72 SIM-I, 6 C T-72, 8 Ukr T-72, and 1 T-55. Additionally the unit has 2 mechanised infantry platoons. I'm still working on this.

Recon Co 101 men

Comms Pl And Eng Pl same as Russia's, just less experienced, which is already modified by ORBATs.

Special Forces Co (less than 151 men)

Militia - 200 men Like Ossetia, Georgia also had conscripted militia units, but their overall morale was lower than that of their Ossetian counterparts, as they weren't fighting inside their capital city.

Other units possible, but unlikely, total force will be between 1,500 - 1,800 men and I'm still working on parts of it. What do you guys think of it so far? BTW, how is the map coming?

[Hermit]

Looking good so far. Nice work on the scaling. Did you leave out the 120mm mortar from the Georgian side arty on purpose, or was that an oversight?

[Snipey]

Originally Posted by Hermit

Looking good so far. Nice work on the scaling. Did you leave out the 120mm mortar from the Georgian side arty on purpose, or was that an oversight?

Thank you

That was an oversight. I was actually wondering what to do with the Georgian 120mm mortar. 12 would be scaled down to 1, but I am able to get everything else to operational strength. Here, the OS would be 2. So I was wondering if I should have 2 120mm mortars for Georgia or 1. What do you guys think?

Also, this might turn out to be a good battle, and we might expand this to a campaign featuring the entire war, where the battle map we are using for the battle will be the map where most of the action takes place. For this battle, the number of turns is going to be the equivalent of daylight hours that Tskhinvali receives.

There's also no point in doing the Abkhaz campaign, because there it was just overkill. The Abkhaz Army of 5,000 could've taken 3,000-4,000 Georgians in the area. But they also had just under 9,000 Russians, and around 2,000 militia. Additionally no Georgian units in Abkhazia even came close to VDV and SpN capabilities. Most of the Georgian Army changed to civilian clothes, (ok lol) surrendered their weapons to the Russians, (only actual requirement to leave,) and left the area. There were several minor engagements, such as the inept Georgian ambush of the VDV column, (no one was killed), the initial Abkhaz charge, (1 Abkhaz killed, 2 wounded and 2 Georgians killed, 1 wounded,) etc. In case the Georgians managed to blow up the Roki Tunnel, or capture Tskhinvali, the Russians would've made an attack from Abkhazia to liberate Ossetia. The forces assigned to hold Georgian positions were woefully outmatched. On top of everything, Russian SU-25s and sometimes SU-24s were quite effective.