Luck/Turmoil versus Nothing.

[Calahan]

I did some brief testing on the whole "luck scales act as misfortune scales for the enemy" last year, but I had to give up as I didn't have the info necessary to interpret the results. As this was long before Edi did his recent random events list (and their triggers), and it was before I started compiling my own events list. (I actually gave up doing this test in order to start that events list so as to obtain the data I needed for this test).


I tested Order and Production scales though, and the effects of good enemy scales (ie. Order 3 + Production 3) were not reversed when they appeared in my provinces under enemy dominion (ie. They did not become Turmoil 3 + Sloth 3). Although when I tested Turmoil 3 and Sloth 3, both these scales immediately took effect on a province upon appearing regardless of whose dominion was there.

I only did brief testing on the Luck/Misfortune scale though, as it was very hard to judge results from the events I was getting due to the lack of a reference for the events I was getting (ie. No Edi's events list). Although I would say that I know how often bad events strike with a Misfortune 3 scale, and in my brief tests I didn't seem to be getting the same level of horrible stuff happening from a Luck 3 scale in enemy dominion. I guess the Dominions RNG going through a kind phase could explain that though


My suspicion is though that the Luck / Misfortune scale acts the same way as the Order / Turmoil, Production / Sloth and Magic / Drain scales. Which is.....

You can never gain the benefit of 'good' enemy scales unless you have positive dominion in the province(s). But any 'bad' scales in a province are always in effect, regardless of positive, negative, neutral dominion. And regardless of whose scales they actually are.


I actually laugh my arse off every time I see someone suggest taking Drain 3 and then using Heretics, Stone Idols or whatever to get the province to neutral or enemy dominion in order remove the -2 research penalty from the Drain scale. All I say to that suggestion is try it!!! The only way to get rid of the effects of a Drain scale is to get rid of the Drain scale And this seems true for all the 'bad' scales from the three scale groups I've mentioned above.


I'll probably re-test Luck / Misfortune when I find time now that I have Edi's events list as a reference. Although can't see me actually having that time for several months, and I would be surprised if the effects of Luck 3 did reverse. (although as Squirrelloid indicates, it will probably all depend on just how the game reads scales when it comes to deciding which events can trigger. Since it may well read scales for events purposes irrespective of dominion)


Also, attached is a save to show my point on the Drain scale. Note the LA Pythium Serpent Priests still have a -2 RP penalty even though the cap dominion is neutral. (their RP would be 6 and not 4 if the effects of the Drain 3 scale had been successfully negated.)

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Knight attack requires Mf2 to trigger.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Um... No... There is seriously a Knight Attack event at Misfortune-3...

What Squirrelloid meant is that you need 'at least' Misfortune 2 to trigger Knight attacks. So you will obviously get Knight attacks with a Misfortune 3 scale. (as Misfortune 3 'includes' Misfortune 2 events)

[Verjigorm]

No, never mind... I'm just an idiot and it was an odd coincidence in both occurrences. After the test which seemed to support my hypothesis (I got knight attacks on two adjacent provinces to the original one), I rolled back the turn and tried it again and couldn't get it to repeat--or rather couldn't get the knights to appear to "travel" the second time. Thus, one for and one against.

I have, of course, only taken Misfortune-3 twice--once in SP and once for this test. I did win the game (with Marignon), but the strong attack events are ridiculously frustrating and can cripple a nation in early game. I have never taken Mis-3 since then. The last point isn't worth the 40 design points.

I've never gotten a knight attack at Mis-2, and I take Mis-2 all the time. It must be exceedingly rare.

and Calahan, as for the Mis-2/Mis-3 thing, that's not what I meant. I skimmed his post too liberally and took him to mean that such a thing does not occur. I appear to have skipped a paragraph or something... I dunno... I just woke up.

[Gandalf Parker]

It would be interesting if a misfortune push could work against your enemies. But if it did this would still be a very difficult strategy to play.

On the other hand, that doesnt play into most of my post about LA Bogarus. The fortune and misfortune abilities in that nation are still something worth trying. I dislike how often nations are rated if the discussions dont seem to make an effort to try and use the differences built into those nations.

[Edi]

All bad scales are always bad scales no matter whose dominion.

Luck scales are misfortune for everyone else but the owner of that dominion.

I think you may get the research bonus from magic even in enemy dominion, but that may be the only effect that goes against the grain. Otherwise it's no benefit from positive scales of enemy dominion.

The events list I compiled gives a detailed analysis of what happens with what, and the best synergies are luck 2 order 2 magic 2 (luck 3 + magic 3 if you want the best events as well).

Having turmoil prevents a lot of good events even if you have luck. Having growth prevents most poploss events, but if you have growth and magic, you can get Ancient Presence, which causes 95% poploss. Though once it happens, it can't happen again until the monster is killed off the map.

[Squirrelloid]

Population growth from growth scales seems to happen regardless of whose dominion it is, but you don't get the %income increase if its not your dominion.

You do not gain +RPs for magic scales that aren't in your dominion.

Note, if its your candles, you get the full benefits of any displayed positive scales, even if they aren't 'yours'.

[WraithLord]

I 2nd DonC.
Not only due to psych effect of L/T.
I really really tried to make L/T combo work for me in MP but all I got, repeatedly, was disappointment.
I got the gems alright but my income was so bad and had no income events in first 15 turns => game over.

So T is out of the question for me (with exception of Pan).

As Squirrelloid mentioned good luck can work with order in CBM and indeed it's a combo I like. I'm not basing this only on number crunching but rather on experience.
Oh, and Mft in CBM is such a PiTA. Even for solid PD nations it gets annoying, causes more MM and can be really devastating during expansion phase. In YARG I took msft2 as bogarus and payed a hefty price. It was like I was in war with the barb nation and then there was this important province of mine raided by the visiting heroes. They kept it to the end, neither me nor my enemies could spare the resources to take it back.

One last comment, I have this MP game in which my L3 just stopped working. I mean, I have a strong dominion and >50 provinces but I got no lucky events for like 20 turns in a row. Luck worked perfect for first 20-30 turns of the game and then suddenly stopped. It took me awhile to notice that. Strange.

[DonCorazon]

I really developed a deep-seeded hatred for Luck in the last Rand game. I took a scale of Luck as Sauro, blood-pumped dominion everywhere and expected to be raking in some diverse gems and income. But my main reason was I really wanted to get the Sauro heroes for some sorely needed magic diversity. Seemed to work well in a few test runs.

Well, the actual game got to about turn 60ish and I never got a single hero. Not. One.

Oh and that's not all. My lab burned down twice, once preceding being biesieged, which caused an immense migraine as I could not equip the fort defenders with the appropriate counter gear.

After that experience, you can run all the charts and analysis and stats but I will never take luck scales again. That's right. F-U Luck!

P.s. I also am against Turmoil as Pan since their troops are so expensive and maenads are a one-trick pony, but that's another story.

[Edi]

Luck by itself does little. Luck in conjunction with some of the other scales does a hell of a lot more. If you have otherwise all neutral scales, taking luck is just a waste of design points.

[rdonj]

I kind of like turmoil 1 for pan. You still get maenads, mostly get gold, and it still will work well with luck. I don't think I will ever take turmoil 3 in any real game.