Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[llamabeast]

Okay, I am going to reduce the attack of the Shishi by either 6 or 8. Place your votes now.

zzcat, I think you are right - I will nerf the Zmey somewhat, although he will finish closer to his new power level than his old (which was quite useless). I will incorporate the shapechange fixes you noticed, and put the firebreath first as suggested. I'll also fix the shishi's 175 SR while I'm at it.

I think I may increase the cost of the Grendelkin from 40 to 50 gems.

I'm saying all this because I've run out of time to actually do it tonight, and won't get a chance for a few days, so there is some opportunity for people to comment on the proposed changes.

I would also really appreciate it if people had a look at the other summons to see if there are any other concerns. I would like the next version to stand for some time as I think it's best if things don't change too much (how is anyone ever meant to learn tactics if things change all the time?).

I've noticed that comments come thick and fast in response to bold claims by people. Hence I make these bold claims:

ASYNJA IS OP, HOW ARE YOU MEANT TO CATCH A GLAMOUR SC?

WENDIGO IS SLOW TO GROW AND CONSEQUENTLY USELESS

NO USE CAN BE FOUND FOR THE STUPID ROC

TREANT IS TOO SLOW AND IS WORSE THAN MONKEY PD

GRENDELKIN CANNOT BE KILLED

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Okay, I am going to reduce the attack of the Shishi by either 6 or 8. Place your votes now.

zzcat, I think you are right - I will nerf the Zmey somewhat, although he will finish closer to his new power level than his old (which was quite useless). I will incorporate the shapechange fixes you noticed, and put the firebreath first as suggested. I'll also fix the shishi's 175 SR while I'm at it.

I think I may increase the cost of the Grendelkin from 40 to 50 gems.

I'm saying all this because I've run out of time to actually do it tonight, and won't get a chance for a few days, so there is some opportunity for people to comment on the proposed changes.

I would also really appreciate it if people had a look at the other summons to see if there are any other concerns. I would like the next version to stand for some time as I think it's best if things don't change too much (how is anyone ever meant to learn tactics if things change all the time?).

I've noticed that comments come thick and fast in response to bold claims by people. Hence I make these bold claims:

ASYNJA IS OP, HOW ARE YOU MEANT TO CATCH A GLAMOUR SC?

WENDIGO IS SLOW TO GROW AND CONSEQUENTLY USELESS

NO USE CAN BE FOUND FOR THE STUPID ROC

TREANT IS TOO SLOW AND IS WORSE THAN MONKEY PD

GRENDELKIN CANNOT BE KILLED

I guess if you are going to reduce the attack skill of shishis, 6 is probably the maximum that is doable (otherwise they will be not much use against demon thugs/SCs, and I like that they have a niche there). 8 definitely seems excessive, even with 6 attacks to whittle defense down. EDIT: I've just realized shishi currently have 17 attack skill. I remembered reading that they had 20. My vote is thus changed to not lowering the attack skill to below 14.

I think Asynja should probably be left alone for a bit. They are a bit frail as SCs, and though stealth+glamour means it's really hard to catch one, right now in MP games it's looking like they may be sidelined a bit as SCs and end up more as casters.

The wendigo right now is in an interesting spot, as an SC available with only 6 in a school. They take a while to grow, but they are still useful before fully grown and while it's a bit painful to have to wait for them, you can have a decent number of them before other people have access to real SCs. I think these need more testing before changes are made to them.

Rocs provide access to air magic, as squirrel said, and that definitely makes them not useless! Especially with the siege bonus 30, they should be excellent army support midgame casting fog warriors/wrathful skies/etc in battle, and helping break down walls on the strategic map. The patrol bonus could also be useful in certain situations, though it's not really what I'd buy them for. More of a useful bonus. They are also certainly usable as light raiders earlier on, and counter raiders, which should be able to kill lower end thugs. By the way it is these with the 175 shock resist, not shishis.

I think the Treant needs to lose the rooted form, but have the rooted bonuses transferred to the walking form. It is more cool presently in my opinion, but it would be much more usable with this change. Having to root to be an effective fighter could lead to some verious silly scenarios, like the treant trying to rout but not being able to move, so it dies even if it could kill what's attacking it. Also it should probably gain a little AP, or possibly instead 1 more mapmove. One or the other IMO.

Grendelkin are awesome but don't have great skill and have no magic or resists. They're definitely killable, it is just very hard. They could maybe lose some strength. Go down by 10 or so. They should be very killable by armies though, and it's hard for them to catch SCs. I'd like to see people use these more before they're changed too much

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by rdonj

EDIT: I've just realized shishi currently have 17 attack skill. I remembered reading that they had 20.

Shishi's have an effective attack skill of 20, as they gain +3 from quickness the moment they enter battle. This isn't factored in to the base value of 17 attack you see displayed outside of battles.

[rdonj]

/headdesk!

I guess you've gotten me back, calahan, after all those times I've taunted you. But I will have my revenge!

[Calahan]

During my tests with the Shishi, I found the burning pearl helped a fair bit when attacking against high defence. Better than luck quite often. (no point negating half of the hits against you if you still can't hit yourself)


Plus it's not just about a one-on-one match-up, as you have to consider what would actually happen during a game. As in that scenario the PD comes into the equation. Since if you have a Shishi in the field and expect it to be ambushed, paying just 60g for 10PD often either interrupts the attacking Shishi killer during buffing, or provides other targets for the Shishi killer to focus on, meaning the Shishi has a number of free hits. And of course the attacks by the PD help lower the defence of the Shishi killer.


Either way I think lowering the attack value on the Shishi by 6 will achieve the desired result for now. As 17 really is at the top end of natural attack scores, and that's without adding the +3 from quickness and +1 from experience (which they'd likely get from their first raid).

The attack value of the Shishi really is critical IMO, as whatever value it is will automatically go through a big force multiplier because of the six attacks. And any extra attack points the Shishi gets from any source is going to be boosted comparatively more for the Shishi than for other units, because of this force multiplier.


Giving the Shishi a natural attack value of 11 (14 in battle) = Good idea in my book.

Originally Posted by rdonj

/headdesk!

I guess you've gotten me back, calahan, after all those times I've taunted you. But I will have my revenge!

You know where to find me rdonj. So you're welcome to try whenever you're ready

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

GRENDELKIN CANNOT BE KILLED

False.
I had one killed, despite being kitted, etc. because it just crawled underwater and got stuck first with some mermen, second with ice encasings. When he routed due to turn limit, he wasn't fast enough to actually get out of the battlefield and eventually died. My bane lords fared much better...
I still say grendelkin needs amphibious.
Did people actually use it in MP before saying it's overpowered?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

Did people actually use it in MP before saying it's overpowered?

Why limit that comment to just Grendelkin? It applies to virtually every complaint in this thread. The mod has been used in like 4 MP games, none of which is using its current form. People just have this strong 'OMG' reaction, because they're comparing them to the wrong things or just don't understand the mechanics or can't be bothered to actually playtest. I mean, some of these are meant to be alternatives to *tartarians*, they need to be pretty amazing.

Anyone comparing Cyclops, Asynja, Grendelkin, and Emberlords (and probably a few others) to anything but Tartarians is comparing them to the wrong things. Your analysis is worthless because you've missed the point. Asynja's being 'easy blood access?' Oh for the love of pete, you're at Conjuration ~8, seriously, whatever, totally irrelevant. Stop failing to see the forest for the trees.

And anyone complaining about overpowered without actually playing games, especially MP games, with them is just whining. Stop that.

Llama, can I ask you hold off on making any changes until you hear back from real MP games how things actually worked?