EA Arco - uncle moneybags

[Verjigorm]

I didn't like the "Oriead Thug" concept either for several reasons:

1. Orieads only have 10hp, so even with all of their protections up, they still get killed frequently by a single lucky hit.

2. Awe is nice, yes, but it can be countered easily by berserk units. Orieads, if left to their own devices rather than being scripted to attack, will spam Stream of Life until units get in range of Shockwave. One Berserk unit made in this way will utterly ignore the Awe aura.

3. Mistform is countered by magic weapons.

A 400gp mage that has easy access to reinvigoration and items thereof can cast a lot of battle magic. Is it really worthwhile to take such a unit and have it run into melee? I certainly don't like seeing an Oriead surrounded by a swarm of units. Against indie units, fine, they do quite well, but not against an enemy player's army.

Why would I want the Orieads (whose numbers are rather limited) to fight armies when I could use them to assassinate commanders? Their thugging ability is provable, but against a great host, they are always endangered. Why not use their power against a smaller force of usually a single mage or commander, or at most such a commander and 10 body guards?

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I didn't like the "Oriead Thug" concept either for several reasons:

1. Orieads only have 10hp, so even with all of their protections up, they still get killed frequently by a single lucky hit.

2. Awe is nice, yes, but it can be countered easily by berserk units. Orieads, if left to their own devices rather than being scripted to attack, will spam Stream of Life until units get in range of Shockwave. One Berserk unit made in this way will utterly ignore the Awe aura.

3. Mistform is countered by magic weapons.

A 400gp mage that has easy access to reinvigoration and items thereof can cast a lot of battle magic. Is it really worthwhile to take such a unit and have it run into melee? I certainly don't like seeing an Oriead surrounded by a swarm of units. Against indie units, fine, they do quite well, but not against an enemy player's army.

Why would I want the Orieads (whose numbers are rather limited) to fight armies when I could use them to assassinate commanders? Their thugging ability is provable, but against a great host, they are always endangered. Why not use their power against a smaller force of usually a single mage or commander, or at most such a commander and 10 body guards?

I don't use oreo thugs much, but assassination is a losing game.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I don't use oreo thugs much, but assassination is a losing game.

Why? With access to a nice thug, and a spirit helm. It works often.

[chrispedersen]

Fundamentally, it loses due to cost/return.

It costs too many actions to assassinate.
To concquer an indy you will have to assassinate 3 commanders.

To conquer an opponent you will have to stealth assassins. Which will take one or more turns, usually and runs a risk of detection. Assassinations also frequently fail.

Assassins pay a 'premium' usually for the stealth ability, and roughly speaking are inferior to equivalent thugs without.

So the extra turns - stealthy, or assassinating are the costs.

The return problem is this: The average mage, thug or SC has the opportunity (and will usually succeed if winning the fight) of killing *multiple* enemy troops and/or mages/SCs.

The 'return' on the action is therefore much higher than an assassinations possible death of an opponent.

Toss in the fact that the chances to score loot are lower too.

I'm *not* saying a well timed assassination, or surprise stealth of a key retreat province can't be an incredibly viable tool.

But merely that generally speaking much less so than other options.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Why? With access to a nice thug, and a spirit helm. It works often.

Because it's not worth the time and effort.

Even if you succeed, you're likely to spend your time killing indy commanders.

And you have to keep moving, or they'll patrol with a force designed to kill you. Since they know where you are and how
you're geared & scripted.

When you could be raiding, taking provinces and sneaking away before you can be attacked.

Not that assassination doesn't have niche uses. Multiple assassins on an unprepared target can be effective. Assassins can kill commanders in an attacking army to split it. But not as a main use for 400gp cap-only mages.